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Post by Ah Gin on Jul 29, 2010 22:29:41 GMT -5
leechun, Good on you that you are researching this part of the Chinese Heritage. It will become a life time passion, as you probably discovered already. I am no gene expert, nor expert in reading Chinese. That said, the following good old faithful Wiki URL may be useful. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zupuwiki.familysearch.org/en/China_GenealogyAs I understand it: Zupu is a book compiled for the Clan, while Jiapu is more for the particular family of the Clan. Roughly, Zu" means Clan, while "Jia" means family. Of course Jiapu should all be collected under the clan Zupu anyway. Samples of our Clan Zupu can be see here: ginsunhall.org/family%20roots.htmThe following dictionary definition may help: www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict&wdrst=0&wdqb=zupuTo cite the Zupu or Jiapu in your research, I suggest you quote the Zupu/Jiapu title in full, which usually list out the Clan Surname, the Market Town / Ancestral village, the Volume and the date of publication. I expect it will be in Chinese (Traditional or Simplified, depending when and where it was published in). And if you are fortunate enough to have a translated copy, then name of the translator etc. "Juk pu" sounds like tranliteration of Zupu in Cantonese. I think now a days, it is common practice to spell it as Zupu. Hope this helps. Aloha. Regards, Ah Gin |
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Post by Doug 周 on Jul 30, 2010 0:04:49 GMT -5
To correctly view Chinese characters please select [View], [Encoding], and [Unicode] options. leechun I have heard the pronunciation of Juk Pu by my cousin. Like you, I have no Chinese language skills. From my notes, I have these multiple words for family tree: pudie 譜牒= Family writing Materials zongpu 宗譜= Ancestors‘ records zupu 族譜(clan register)= describe blood relationship locations jiapu 家譜(family register)= Family Tree zipu 支譜= Family branch writing jiacheng 家乗（Chinese ancient words)=jiapu 家譜 The difference between zupu and jiapu is defined on Al Chinn’s web site BTW Henry considers Al Chinn’s paperback book You are Royalty the best how to guide for Chinese genealogy studies. I have to agree. When my cousin pronounced Juk Pu, it got me wondering on how to answer your question. Hence the power of the Internet: Select and paste the Chinese characters for zupu 族譜 into this site: Character dictionary When you click [GO] you will see the Yale & Jyutping Cantonese pronunciation of zupu, which is Juk Pou or Zuk Pou, respectively. You don’t need to know Chinese to do Chinese genealogy research!  Strangely, this is the same site that ahgin mentioned above. It must be a different section which has Mandarin and Cantonese pronunciation along with a host of other goodies. I am vitally interested in the Young family of Chungshan, but from the Sun Ming Ting village. mugenpower168gave the forum a link with an email address to an Hawaiian Sun Ming Ting Association, but I have had no reply. ¿Do you know anyone I can contact from that association? I would like to find someone who can share the family jiapu If you do, please click on my name and private email me. Also, tell us more how you are referencing your sources in the jiapu. I am having difficulty citing my sources and don't know how much or how little to cite. ¿What are you discovering when reading the translated jiapu? ¿Can you add to this thread on how to read a jiapu? ‘General format of Zupu’ and how to read a jiapu Doug (click on the red phrase to link to the URL) |
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Post by leechun on Jul 30, 2010 18:35:46 GMT -5
Doug and Ah Gin,
Thank you so much for your thorough and helpful replies. From your answers I would say that I have a translation of a Zupu because it includes all branches of the family, not just ours, plus it has information about the early migration, family rules, cemetery locations, etc. The translation is 728 pages which were photographed one at a time and put on a cd. Tedious to use but still, it is a great resource.
Thank you also for the reference to Al Chinn's web site. I spent quite a bit of time studying it right after we returned from China last Spring and appreciated the reminder. I have ordered a couple of his books that look very helpful.
I am not familiar with the Sun Ming Ting Association in Hawaii but I will ask my mother-in-law if she knows any of the people listed, and then let you know if she does.
I'm afraid I cannot add much to the discussion on reading zupu. I can concur with the descriptions already given. The translators of this zupu decided to use a coding system which really helps separate the generations. For each generation they give the generation number, then a hyphen and birth number for each son and daughter (example: 28-1, 28-2, etc.) The sons are listed first, by name, then the daughters by the surname of who they married and his village. Of course, there might be many with the number 28-1, depending on how many cousins there are. So, one has to pay close attention to names, father's names, etc.
The next generation (in this translation) is indented and given the next number (i.e. 29-1, etc.). Only two generations are mentioned at one time and each generation is separeted by bold text: GENERATION TWENTY-EIGHT. (This may only be a technique of this translation.) Each male is entered twice. First, he is entered as a son and several pages further on he will be listed as a father. It is possible to keep going further and further back by following the father back to his position as a son, then seeing who his father is, etc. Of course, you will likely eventually come to his statement: "adopted by xyz family" and then the genealogy gets a bit squirrely.
Ah Gin's suggestion on citing the zupu was great. Unfortunately I do not even have a title page to this book so I simply called it the Young Family Genealogy and gave the translator's name and date the translation was completed. I use Legacy (genealogy software) which has a "source writer" component to help you along. I selected the category "artifact" since what I have is not really the zupu but a CD of an English translation of the original zupu. But, at least the reference tells the reader that they can come to me for the CD.
I'm glad to have rediscovered this message board. I had forgotten how very helpful this group is. Thanks again.
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Post by Ah Gin on Jul 31, 2010 4:51:02 GMT -5
leechun,
Sounds like the translator of the Young Zupu in your possession has done an excellent job, and indeed, it sounds like it's a Zupu. From memory, Doug had previously described the content of a typical Zupu. (Mind you, I am not too certain that there is an ISO Standard for Zupu ;D) That said, using our Clan Zupu as a sample, and specifically one from our ancestral village, the content is as follows:
1. modern map of the clan villages and surrounding
2. photo of contributors
3. photos of various villages under the same Clan administration
4. clan origin
5. origin of the clan village
6. Clan population distribution statistics
7. names of all villages; gov admin name, originator of each village
8. generation poem
9. major events record
10. family tree, beginning with the progenitor' each generation numbered
11. significant achievements and events relating to particular individual
12. tomb and cemetry maps
13. general articles about the market town and surrounding villages
14. map of main towns associated with our clan
15. list of all related zupu
16. description of earlier generation of our clan
17. major development milestones
18. slogans of each village
19. maps of properties, with names of lawful owner
20. pictures of celebrations
Regarding citation: Perhaps look again. The name of the market town could very well be in the document. if you can find it, then it will be better to make reference as, " The Guangzhou Young Clan Zupu; xx Market Town Jiapu, compiled xx year"
Good luck in your search.
Regards, Ah Gin
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Post by leechun on Aug 5, 2010 17:15:06 GMT -5
Ah Gin,
I found this in the Introduction to the zupu, stating that it was the address written from largest to smallest geographic area:
Gong Doong Sang, Jung San Inn, Gok Gee Doo, Dai Ung Kee, Oo Syak Heong, Jung Sung Tong, Yung Ga Hong
Can you tell which one is the market village?
I don't even know if these names are in Cantonese or in the local dialect. Since the translation was done in 1980, I guess this is Wade-Giles romanization.
Any help much appreciated. Also, you suggest putting the compilation year in the citation but I don't really know that, only the year of the translation.
Thanks!
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Post by Ah Gin on Aug 6, 2010 5:48:50 GMT -5
leechun, Sorry can't give you a quality answer yet as I am rushing to prepare for the birthday celebration of an 80 year old friend, tomorrow. After my weekend my old brain may come up with semething -- pattern recognition etc. they say. Meanwhile, there are a number of forum members who may recognise something before the days out. That said, have you tried searching Village BD? www.c-c-c.org/villagedb/display.cgi?level=County&id=4 The nearest Market Town I can "hear" as I read your posting is 中山 that is Chung Shan As the Gov of CA said when he was in acting, "I will be back". Regards, Ah Gin |
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Post by Ah Gin on Aug 6, 2010 5:58:40 GMT -5
leechun,
"Gong Doong Sang, Jung San Inn," sound very much like:
Guangdong Province, Zhongshan County
Gong Doong Sang = 广东省 = Guangdong Province
Jung San Inn = 中山縣 = Zhongshan County
So the Zupu is a Guangdong Young Zupu ?
That's my guess.
Regards, Ah Gin
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Post by twoupman on Aug 6, 2010 20:09:51 GMT -5
leechun, Perhaps I may be able to help you with the title page for your husband's genealogy record. I assume your Young=楊. According to Chinese practice the title page would consist of three parts and would look like this: 廣東省中山市谷字都烏石村 Guangdong Province, Zhongshan County, Guzidu, Wushicun 楊氏家譜 Young Surname Family Record “Name of ancestor’s father”美國分支 Name of ancestor’s father’s American Branch The "Name of ancestor's father" will be the name of the father of the ancestor who first arrived in Hawaii. There is no need to identify the person who translated the record from Chinese to English on the title page. This will be identified in the Introduction. Your Gok Gee Doo=谷字都 Oo Syak Heong=Present day 烏石村 twoupman Al Chinn houseofchinn.com |
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Post by Henry on Aug 6, 2010 22:00:47 GMT -5
Leechun, I believe I have located your ancestral village 烏石村 Wushicun, apparently, the original village expanded and a Wushi 1 cun was established, then, a Wushi 2 cun was added. Can you confirm and did you visit all three Wushicuns ? Henry    |
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Post by tyuti1668 on Aug 6, 2010 23:42:24 GMT -5
TV prog about that village
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Post by mugenpower168 on Aug 7, 2010 0:15:19 GMT -5
Leechun, I believe I have located your ancestral village 烏石村 Wushicun, apparently, the original village expanded and a Wushi 1 cun was established, then, a Wushi 2 cun was added. Can you confirm and did you visit all three Wushicuns ? Henry Oo Syak (Wushi) Gee Lu Society of Hawaii oosyakgeelu.com/ |
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Post by mugenpower168 on Aug 7, 2010 0:55:01 GMT -5
According to Chinese practice the title page would consist of three parts and would look like this: 廣東省中山市谷字都烏石村 Guangdong Province, Zhongshan County, Guzidu, Wushicun Sorry to be pedantic but I would suggest using ä¸å±±ç¸£ instead of ä¸å±±å¸‚. The name "Zhongshan City" is a relatively new name so in order to keep it consistent with the traditional name, "county" should be used. (The "modern" name would be 廣æ±çœä¸å±±å¸‚三鄉鎮çƒçŸ³æ‘). Also, simply 谷都 will be sufficient as the name è°·å—都 was changed to 谷都 in 1827, although they are exactly the same area. |
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Post by mugenpower168 on Aug 7, 2010 1:00:49 GMT -5
Here is an example of a title page. Attachments:
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Post by gckimm on Sept 1, 2010 17:36:31 GMT -5
Hi: I am a new member. I recommend to all those who are searching for Chinese genealogies that they try the nearest Mormon Church (LDS) Family History Center. You can search for one on the LDS genealogy site, familysearch.org. The Mormon Church has in their huge Family History Library in Salt Lake City, Utah, a vast collection of microfilmed Chinese genealogies from all parts of China, including Guangdong Province. Anyone can request microfilm to view from this library. Here is the procedure: 1) Using the search engine at familysearch.org, find any possibly helpful genealogies and print out the information. 2) Take this information to the nearest Family History Center. 3) Fill out the necessary forms to borrow microfilm from the library in Salt Lake; there will also be a small fee per item borrowed. 4) Wait for the FHC volunteer to let you know your films are in. 5) Go to the FHC and view the microfilm. Please note that the volunteers are very friendly and they will not talk to you about religion (unless you ask). They welcome people of all religions and backgrounds to use their materials.
The genealogies are in Chinese, of course, so it would be good for those who do not read Chinese to take someone with them to help translate. At the FHC near me, in Santa Clara, California, they also have machines that will enable people to copy the microfilmed information onto flash drives, which they can take home with them. The microfilm cannot leave the FHC but you can go there as often as you like within the time you have it borrowed (40 days or so). I have to say that I have not found anything that is useful to me, but there are so many genealogies available that they must be useful to someone!
By the way, I have a lot of information about the Ng or Eng 伍 clan of Toishan--one of the clans missing from your site! If anyone is interested, he or she is welcome to contact me at gckimm@juno.com.
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Post by harc3 on Sept 2, 2010 5:55:53 GMT -5
Wu Shi is my ancestral village  |
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Strangely, this is the same site that 
