Re: Common Ancestor with Surname 陳/陈 « Reply #60 on Dec 24, 2008, 2:06am »
I would like to thank Twoupman for the very useful piece of information. Without his prompting I would not have known that there is a Sei Chyun (四村) as it is not in the earlier map. My thanks go to Henry as well for posting the map showing both Sei Chyun (四村) and Naahm Chyun (南村).
I will pass this piece of information to the OCAO and see whether they would be able to verify whether Sei Chyun (四村) is in fact my ancestral village.
Re: Common Ancestor with Surname Chen (/) « Reply #61 on Dec 24, 2008, 2:17pm »
Philip,
I have to decline the offer as I am presently in the planning and development stages on two publishing projects. I am taking a break for the holiday season and am thus able to visit the forum but come 2009 most of my time will be occupied and as such my visits to the forum will be sporadic and infrequent.
The first project will be the production of a Roots Search series of booklets on the first nine surnames listed in the new Hundred Surnames. Each booklet will delve into the origin of the surname and would serve as an introduction to budding family historians in search of their roots.
The second project will be a major undertaking on the Chen Genealogy which will chronicle its beginnings in Henan Province and the eventual southward expansion across the Yangze River to the provinces of Jiangxi, Zhejiang, Fujian and finally Guangdong. For those who are interested in this future book please go to http://houseofchinn.com/Resources.html. When completed this publication will probably be the only one of its kind on the Chen Genealogy market available in English and should serve as a useful tool for those who are researching their Chen roots.
Xuangxing,
I should have translated Sei Chyun (四村) as Fourth Village instead of Four Village because there is also a Saam Chyun (三村) (which means Third Village) close by.
Joined: Jun 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 322 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Re: Common Ancestor with Surname Chen « Reply #62 on Dec 24, 2008, 9:49pm »
Al Chinn,
It is unfortunate you are not able to accept the offer. Readers to this Forum will be poorer by your absence.
I roughly know the type of booklets on surnames in connection with your project on Root Search series as I too have them from two sources that are both in Chinese. As there are so cheap to purchase in China you must be very dedicated in Chinese genealogy to embark on a project like this in English. I believe those contained in "The Origin of Chinese Surnames" by CHUNG Yoon-Ngan, published through: Rio Bay Publishing (ISBN 1 876763 66 3) would not be able to measure up to the details that will be contained in your series.
I am looking forward to the completion of your second project. It will certainly save a lot of translation works by Chinese illiterate English speaking Chen enthusiast on the many material that are available only in Chinese.
Joined: Jun 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 322 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Re: Common Ancestor with Surname Chen « Reply #64 on Jan 7, 2009, 10:04am »
I did not know anything about Tan Tock Seng until I read about him in this Henry's posting in "My paternal Tan and maternal Toh families" tread just now. When Singapore was part of Malaysia, Tan Tock Seng Hospital was quite frequently mentioned in Singapore news contained in Malaysian newspapers then.
As Tan Tock Seng was born in Malacca, can Jeffrey Seow let us know where Tan Tock Seng's father was buried? If in Malacca, it could be on Bukit Cina (China Hill); the cemetery which Henry and I visited on Friday August 22, 2008 when Henry was here in Kuala Lumpur. If it was and if we can be given the location or the coordinate, Henry, we could visit the grave when you come here again this year. Can Jeffrey also enlighten us as the village and county in Fujian which Tan Tock Seng's ancestors originated from?
If the common ancestor with Al Chinn can be located, it could be easier to determine the common ancestor with Jeffrey's cousin Lawrence Tan.
Re: Common Ancestor with Surname Chen (/) « Reply #65 on Jan 7, 2009, 11:37am »
Hi Philip,
There is a fair amount of information about Tan Tock Seng inOne Hundred Years of Chinese in Singapore, by Song Ong Siang, John Murray, London 1923, 602 pages. I think there were 8 editions of this book which can run from $160 USD to $500 USD plus. The first edition, which I have a copy of, has some stunning photographs of many of the famous Chinese in Singapore.
This book is described as:
"One hundred years' history of the Chinese in Singapore, being a chronological record of the contribution by the Chinese community to the development, progress and prosperity of Singapore ... from the foundation of Singapore on 6th February 1819 to its centenary on 6th February 1919"
Henry is right about Sir Song's book but you could read it for free at the national library (Perpustakaan Negara Malaysia), seeing as how you are in Kuala Lumpur. The library opens Tuesdays to Saturdays from 10am to 7pm.
As Tan Tock Seng was born in Malacca, can Jeffrey Seow let us know where Tan Tock Seng's father was buried? If in Malacca, it could be on Bukit Cina (China Hill); the cemetery which Henry and I visited on Friday August 22, 2008 when Henry was here in Kuala Lumpur. If it was and if we can be given the location or the coordinate, Henry, we could visit the grave when you come here again this year. Can Jeffrey also enlighten us as the village and county in Fujian which Tan Tock Seng's ancestors originated from?
Philip,
According to Jeffrey's cousin, Lawrence Tan, Tan Tock Seng's father was buried at "St John's Hill (by the water tank), Malacca" and Tan Tock Seng's ancestors were from "Hai Cheng, Fukien Province, China". The information is available at Lawrence's Tan Family Tree using the following link: http://www.gencircles.com/users/lawrencetan/2/data/159
Re: Common Ancestor with Surname Chen (/) « Reply #69 on Feb 5, 2009, 4:04am »
I am reading through this whole thread since it was started and have just come to the place where you mention zupas and buying them. Where do you buy them from? how do you know who has them for sale? and if your name is Chan would you just buy any Chan zupa/s in case there was a connection?
Will now get back to reading the rest of the thread.
Joined: Jun 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 322 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Re: Common Ancestor with Surname Chen (/) « Reply #70 on Feb 7, 2009, 12:43am »
Hi June,
The first zupu I had was in August 2007 when I went to my ancestral village for the first time. I have a cousin there and my purpose is to visit the house that my grandfather built and in the process I was expected to perform the traditional venerations to my ancestors whose tablets are house therein. When I went there I had no idea whatsoever about zupu. I heard about jiapu and I never heard anything about my family keeping a jiapu. What I had was just the generation names for each generation. Even this was given to me a few years ago by a distant relative.
The day before we went to my ancestral house, we went to my wifes ancestral village (which is about 10 minutes drive away from mine). There her uncle showed us her surname clan zupu (a set of two volumes published in 2002). That zupu included my father-in-laws name and go back about 17 generations. Though I was highly trilled by this, it was with much envy to know, for the first time, that my wife has a family history that stretched back to around 1500 AD (if you assumed 1 generation to be 30 years). When I reached my ancestral home the next day, among the first time that my cousin did was to hand me my particular Chan clan zupu for my surname clan from my ancestral village. That must be one of the happiest moment in my life. The page that contained my name was pointed out to me. That itself made my life so much easier when tracing my ancestry. With that set of two books and without knowing how to read any Chinese, I could subsequently trace my ancestry all to way to Shun Di and from there to Huang Di with the name of every generation given.
From what I can gather from the zupu, contributions in terms of money and effort are provided by members of the Clan. I would imagine members of the clan would be given a complimentary set of the zupu. I got mine free and my cousin has just obtained another set for me but I have yet to collect the set. By the way, I am planning to bring my son there next year to meet up with his cousin.
Going back to the topic of zupu, if your own ancestral lineage is only what your are after, then your own surname clan zupu from your ancestral village is what would be needed; that is, if the lineage goes all the way back like mine. However if your Chan clan zupu goes back only some 30 generations or so, then it is a matter of connecting to the rest of the tree that may ultimately come out in this forum; otherwise you need to search for other sources. Base upon what I can assess of you case, you are so much ahead of many others in this forum who are searching for their lineages. You have your father-in-law name in Chinese character. You know the house in China that your husbands siblings were born. You know the name of the place and Henry has already provided you a map of the place. What you probably need now is the name of your husbands grandfather and/or great grandfather. If you are as blessed as me where my name is already in the zupu, you even do not need that.
I do not know what your objectives are. If it is just to secure your Chan clan zupu or jiapu or related jiapu of your husband and if you do not have any desire to go to the place yourself, the most economical option is to get Mr Tan Shi Cheng to do the job for you. Even if you want to go there yourself, it would be advisable for Shi Cheng to pave the groundwork for you beforehand especially if your interest is to secure the zupu/jiapu. Even if the zupu/jiapu are in existence, you need the soft touch to get hold of them. Even if you are a Chinese yourself, you may not know the prevailing custom and sensibility of the place. The way as I seem to perceive behavior of people from various culture and places and if you are, say, a Chinese American, brought up in the ways that American do (my apology to my American colleagues in this forum reading this) it is quite likely that you may unintentionally upset some people there.
Of course there are other (may be easier but I would imagine more expensive) ways of achieving like your objective by hiring the service of a Chinese genealogy company like the one I heardis in existence in California. I do not know the details but Henry could probably fill you in with the details.
Unless you are as crazy as me (and Henry), you may not want to go out to purchase other Chan clan zupu from other places unless you want also to look at other branches of the same surname. The owners of these zupu may have obtained them free but they are going to part with them for free. Some may be for sale. However let me say this from the offset. Buying them and getting them to you are not exactly cheap. Even then, you are taking a gamble as you do not know how the zupu would finally turn out to be. It may a gem but it could also be a dud. I know because I have about 30 sets of Chan/Chen zupu in my possession now and more are on the way to me. This excludes 21 zupu of Li/Lee and other genealogical books. On other overall books on surnames (these do not provide the lineages) I have about close to 90 books on other surnames. Chinese genealogy can be quite additive and as I had mentioned this before, I caught the bug from Henry. I am expecting my wife to kick me out of the house anytime soon, if I am nor careful. When that happens, I hope Henry can spare me his basement or garage for me to squat.
If you are really interested to acquire other Chan clan zupu, you need to have knowledgeable contacts in China to search them. I have my own contacts there that I trust. There is no point in asking your friends (who happen to be going to China) to get any surname clan zupu for you. Even if your friends have the contacts there but not knowledgeable, it cannot be done. I tried that a number of times without any success whatsoever.
Joined: Jan 2006 Gender: Female Posts: 1,287 Location: New Zealand
Re: Common Ancestor with Surname Chen (/) « Reply #71 on Feb 7, 2009, 1:41am »
Phillip - You mention you have some Chan Zupu. Are any of them from Zengcheng. I am keen for the villages of Sungai / Xinjie(New Street), Hargee / Xiaji, Sa Chuen / Shacun (all in Zengcheng)?
Joined: Jun 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 322 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Re: Common Ancestor with Surname Chen (/) « Reply #72 on Feb 7, 2009, 7:28am »
Helen,
I do not know. On the genealogy front I am busy searching for material to construct the charts required for the Clan Progenitor Section. Besides that, I have to attend to my professional duties. I have yet to look at my 20 digital Chen zupus as well as a few of the hard copies. It is difficult to go through the digital copies when I am illiterate in Chinese. It may sound rather silly that I am busy acquiring zupus without having the time to look at them.
As to the places mentioned by you, can you please provide them in Chinese characters? Should I come across any of my zupu connected to these places, I will let know you
Re: Common Ancestor with Surname Chen (/) « Reply #73 on Feb 7, 2009, 8:24am »
Hi Helen,
Are you seeking a Huang family/clan genealogy book for your husband? I believe your children have already visited their ancestral village a couple years ago - did they bring back a copy? If not, you may have to contact a relative in the village to buy one.
If you already have this family/clan genealogy book and the lineage only goes up to the Huang clan progenitor for Guangdong province and you want to extend it up to Huang Di - then you can probably use the Huang clan genealogy book that do extend to Huang Di from other Huang clan members within Zengcheng county and/or Guangdong province - because all these family/clan genealogy books will go up to or include this common Huang clan progenitor ( the first Huang clan ancestor to settle in Guangdong province). Your Huang family/clan genealogy book needs to link up to the common Huang clan progenitor (ancestor) - before linking into the lineage from the Huang clan progenitor for Guangdong province up to Huang Di.
You can try to buy other Huang clan genealogy books that show the lineage to Huang Di or you can start tracking the work of Ben Lee, a Huang/Wong clan member, that recently returned from China with Huang genealogy book that includes the full lineage form his family members in the village to Huang Di.
Ben & his brother Joe have graciously agreed to serve as Co-Moderators of the Huang/Wong Clan thread under the Forum subject " Clan Progenitor References ":
I believe Ben has already identified Huang Ju Zheng (黄居正) as the Huang clan progenitor for Guangdong province - this is the common Huang clan ancestor for the Huang clan in Guangdong province. His genealogy book also goes for another 110 generations to Huang Di.
Meanwhile, Ben & Joe are working on identifying other Huang clan progenitors at the county & town levels in Guangdong province. These progenitors at the county level such as Zengcheng county can - then through these county references - they can link in all the Huang clan genealogy books in Zengcheng county to the Huang clan progenitor at the province level and ultimately to Huang Di.
For each clan thread, the linking of various lineage segments into one continuous clan lineage to Huang Di is why I started the Clan Progenitor References subject.
As you can see, it has gotten off to an excellent start. Philip is taking on an even bigger task by showing various originating clan progenitors that link to the Chen and Huang Di lineages. I think this is the only chart I know of, on the Internet or anywhere else, that does this and it is bi-lingual.
Joined: Jan 2006 Gender: Female Posts: 1,287 Location: New Zealand
Re: Common Ancestor with Surname Chen (/) « Reply #74 on Feb 7, 2009, 6:38pm »
Hi Henry - I was after the Chan Zupu. I'm going back in June this year, to visit all the ancestral villages, and the area where we came from. I am meeting up with one of the posters on this board. I plan to stay 3 nights in Xintang, and a Kiwi expat is going to guide me atround the area, as he has recently been there a few times, walking between villages.
With regards to the Wongs from Bak Shek, Gualing, Bak Sui - They are also in my family/ and husbands family. I am working with a few others of the Gualing Wong are putting together the NZ Wong Zupu - linking past villagers to the ones who migrated to NZ. We have managed to get 25 generations so far. Trying to get the current generations ( 21-25) has been a mission as the ones left are NZ Born, and we have limited Chinese knowledge - even if we know our Chinese names orally, we have no clues as to how the Chinese Character should be written.
I sopke to an 80s plus lady yesterday, - she confirmed her father in law and his father's names in Chinese - but not able to provide the characters. We have missed the boat here.
Short of locating the cemetery and getting a photo of the headstone, I'm stumped.
Can you tell me if I can go "home: with my children (son's) chinese names/characters, will I be able to have them, incorporated in the Chi Tang?
![[Home]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif "[Home]")
![[New Topics]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/topics.png "[New Topics]")
![[Help]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif "[Help]")
![[Search]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif "[Search]")
![[Login]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif "[Login]")
![[Register]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/register.gif "[Register]")
![[Search This Thread]](http://images.proboards.com/search2.gif "[Search This Thread]")
![[Share Topic]](http://images.proboards.com/new/buttons/share.png "[Share Topic]")
![[Print]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif "[Print]")
Author
![[avatar]](http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/ad1649dbc0.gif "[avatar]")
Logged
![[avatar]](http://assets0.geni.com/photos/p9/3680/2138/53444837a2d349a7/Philip_original.jpg "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4099/4869440136_2bb9c1d1ba_o.jpg "[avatar]")
![[homepage]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif "[homepage]")
