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Post by philiptancl on Dec 23, 2008 9:14:59 GMT -5
At the kind invitation of Henry Tom and with the collaboration with Xuangxing, I shall be starting the Chen (陳/陈) Clan thread for the Clan Progenitor References section. I shall do the construction of the spreadsheets while Xuangxing will do the actual posting. As explained by Al Chinn in his website houseofchinn.com/ChenGenealogy.html the surname Chen (陳/陈) can be pronounced in different ways depending upon which of the Chinese dialects one is speaking. These include the following: Mandarin: Chen Cantonese: Chan/Chun, Siyi: Chin/Chinn Chaozhou: Tan Fujian, south: Tan Fujian, north: Ding/Ting Hakka: Chin Shanghainese: Zen. In Malaysia most of the above pronunciations are encountered but the most prevalent are Tan, Chan and Chin. In my Southern Fujian dialect it is pronounced as Tan. This is not to be confused with Henry Tom's surname Tan (譚/谭). My primary source shall be my Chen Clan genealogical record or zupu (族谱) entitled: 永春小岵南山, 陳氏伏道公, 长房雍睦宗志 published in 2003. This would be the "Source One" that I shall refer to from time to time in this Chen Clan thread. There are other Chen zupu in my possession and I will use them as and when required; especially when I expand the lineage out to other regions and provinces. There are more Chen or zupu on the way to me and more are being acquired, if my resources still permit to do or my wife has not kicked me out of the house before then. In some common areas among the sources I already have, there are variations here and there. In order not to confuse those following this thread, especially the Chen first venturing out to find out their family genealogy and using this thread as one of the sources, I shall not bring up these variations; at least for the time being unless it is necessary or is specially requested for. As my records can be traced back to the Yellow Emperor, Huang Di (黄帝), I am of the opinion that it be easier, for those following this thread, if I start the lineage from Huang Di (黄帝) downward rather than for me to list out Xiao Hu Chen (小岵陳) family trees and then proceed upward. I understand that there are more than forty other surnames that are connected to the Chen surname. I shall endeavor to list them out in subsequent postings and hopefully participants in this SiYi Forum could eventually link them up; at least some of them. The progenitor of Xiao Hu Chen (小岵陳) is Chen Hong Yuan (陳弘元) and is referred to as Xiao Wei (校慰) in the family tree. Xiao Hu (小岵) is in the Yongchun County (永春县) within the Fujian Province (福建省). Descending from Chen Hong Yuan, I can count 90 progenitors in the following counties/provinces: 1. Yongchun (永春): 22, 2. Nan'an (南安): 7, 3. Anxi (安溪): 13, 4. Dehua (德化): 1, 5. Jinmen (金门): 1, 6. Fuding (福鼎): 18, 7. Zhejiang (浙江): 27, and 8. Taiwan (å台湾): 1. Taking the progenitor of Xiao Hu Chen (小岵陳), Chen Hong Yuan (陳弘元) as Generation 1, the Xiao Hu Chen surnames, alive as of 2003, ranges from Generation 28 to Generation 42. I shall be forwarding the first of Chen Clan spreadsheet for Xuangxing to post. This will essentially be a repeat of the one posted elsewhere earlier in this Forum except that I have added some additional information. Philip Tan
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Post by xuangxing on Dec 25, 2008 2:48:30 GMT -5
. . . with the collaboration with Xuangxing, I shall be starting the Chen (陈/陳) Clan thread for the Clan Progenitor References section. I shall do the construction of the spreadsheets while Xuangxing will do the actual posting. . . . I shall be forwarding the first of Chen Clan spreadsheet for Xuangxing to post. This will essentially be a repeat of the one posted elsewhere earlier in this Forum except that I have added some additional information. Philip Tan This post is made pursuant to Philip Tan's arrangement with me as referred to in his post, excerpts of which are quoted above. This is the first of Chen Clan spreadsheet from Philip.
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Post by Henry on Dec 27, 2008 10:58:27 GMT -5
Hi Philip & Xuangxing,
Thank you for the great lineage and annotations. People looking at this will really begin to develop an understanding and appreciation of Chen lineages. The annotations are very informative and helpful in learning about Chen lineages.
Henry
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Post by philiptancl on Jan 5, 2009 1:34:52 GMT -5
The next posting that I had just prepared is to show how the lineages for the progenitors of some surnames, i.e. Huáng (黄), Li (æŽ), Yú (ä½™), Tián(ç”°) & Wáng (王), are linked to the lineage of the progenitor of Chén (陈/陳). The progenitors of other surnames could similarly be linked. I could update the posting when they become available to me. However others could contribute by providing how the lineages of the progenitors of their surnames would be linked to the posting.
Also shown are some surnames that are connected with that of the Chén (陈). These are indicated at the respective generation levels where connections were suppose to occur. There are some other surnames that are also connected with the Chén (陈) surname. I propose to show them with subsequent posting(s) as and when appropriate.
I shall be sending Posting 2 to Xuangxing for him to check soon and he will do the actual posting through the arrangement I have with him.
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Post by xuangxing on Jan 7, 2009 20:36:27 GMT -5
. . . with the collaboration with Xuangxing, I shall be starting the Chen (陈/陳) Clan thread for the Clan Progenitor References section. I shall do the construction of the spreadsheets while Xuangxing will do the actual posting. The next posting that I had just prepared is to show how the lineages for the progenitors of some surnames, i.e. Huáng (黄), Lǐ (李), Yú (余), Tián(田) & Wáng (王) and afew others are linked to the lineage of the progenitor of Chén (陈/陳). The progenitors of other surnames could similarly be linked. I could update the posting when they become available to me. However others could contribute by providing how the lineages of the progenitors of their surnames would be linked to the posting. Also shown are some surnames that are connected with that of the Chén (陈). These are indicated at the respective generation levels where connections were suppose to occur. There are some other surnames that are also connected with the Chén (陈) surname. I propose to show them with subsequent posting(s) as and when appropriate. This is the second of Chen Clan spreadsheet from Philip.
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Post by Henry on Jan 8, 2009 10:48:19 GMT -5
Dear Philip and Xuangxing,
Totally awesome and inspiring !!!
I think people can search all over the Internet and they still will not be able to find a chart like this.
Wow !
Henry
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Post by philiptancl on Jan 8, 2009 22:26:29 GMT -5
Henry,
You are too generous with your comments. Having caught the bug from you, I need to find other directions to explore. This is one of them. With the posting I hope others could join in to indicate at what point their ancestral line would be linked. As to the surnames connected to Chén (陈/陳), I hope others with those surnames could indicate their actual linkage connection.
For the Li (æŽ), I could fill in the empty boxes if there is an interest to know. As it is rather lengthy and as there is moderator for the surname in this Forum, I had left out the names in between. As to the surname Tián (ç”°), I will provide the names for the empty boxes if there is no volunteer to start the thread for that surname.
Philip
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Post by xuangxing on Jan 14, 2009 5:01:04 GMT -5
I would like to highlight that I have amended the chart used in my post of Jan 7, 2009, 8:36pm (Reply #4). I have used a different file format removed the boxes, where not having them would not reduce the value of the content, in order to reduce the file size. A reduction in file size would facilitate the loading of the page when members/visitors visit the particular post.
Xuangxing
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Post by Ah Gin on Jan 15, 2009 1:42:13 GMT -5
Philip, My admiration to you and your work. Xuangxing: great collaborative support work.
In our Zupu, it is said that our Clan (Gin) is connected with Shun Di, but as yet I have not seen the research paper on that. Any help from anyone will be appreciated.
Regards, Ah Gin
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Post by philiptancl on Jan 16, 2009 9:58:42 GMT -5
Xuangxing,
Thank you for amending the second chart.
For those who visit this thread not for the first time, you would not be able to see the amendments unless you perform the following operations before clicking onto this thread:
Go to "Tool", select "Internet Option" and then delete "Browsing History" or "Temporary Files".
Next week I am going to further amend both the second chart as well as the first as I have more information now at hand.
Ah Gin,
Yes, your surname is one among more than forty that are connected to Chen. I noticed that through our exchange of personal messages a few weeks ago. Actually I will be listing all the other surnames connected to Chen in the third posting which I shall be drawing up soon. However I am not able to establish at what generation level your surname is connected. In fact, one of the areas of my interest is to find out the actual linkages of these surnames. I was actually hoping that after posting the next chart, you would be able to assist in providing the connection between your Clan surname with Chen. So now the search will go on.
I enjoy the collaborative and collective work with Xuangxing. For me at least, it gives me greater fun and I enjoy it much better than doing it alone. Thank you, Xuangxing.
Regards,
Philip
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Post by xuangxing on Jan 16, 2009 23:23:33 GMT -5
I would like to highlight that, again with the same objective of reducing file size thus facilitating the loading of the page when members/visitors visit the particular post, I have amended the chart used in my post of Dec 25, 2008, 2:48am (Reply #1).
Xuangxing
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Post by benclee on Jan 18, 2009 4:34:31 GMT -5
Greetings Philip, Thanks for posting the Huang lineage connection from Huang Di to Huang Yun. I need to eventually make a connection to this link from my Huang Progenitor thread. You really have a lot of great lineage information. As you may know I'm still learning relative to this genealogy activity, so forgive my ignorance on the subject. I have a Huang zupu that I obtained in my recent visit to my father's village in Taishan. In that zupu, it list 110 generations starting from Huang Di down to the father of the 1st Huang progenitor in Guangdong. It then list in better detail the 1st generation Huang in Guangdong down to the 30th generation. Anyway, I'm finding that what is listed in my zupu doesn't exactly match the early entries that you have listed in your lineage tree. I can see that your information matches the information that Erik Huang has in his website www.geocities.com/bx_huang/. I'm under the impression that these early lineage trees have been subject to much interpretation. Anyway, from your investigations, do you feel that your listing reflects the greatest acceptance among scholars and genealogist? I would like to stick with the lineage line that has the more popular backing. Also I like your use of spreadsheets to show the lineages. I may adopt something similar in my thread. Keep up the good work. Ben Lee
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Post by philiptancl on Jan 19, 2009 21:46:47 GMT -5
Greeting Ben, Thank you for your comments on this thread. You are right. The lineage connecting to Huang is taken from Erik Huang in his website www.geocities.com/bx_huang/. I had stated that as the source under Note 1 at bottom of the Chart. This is the only source I had then when I drew up that chart. I am so glad that you have started the thread for Huang clan and I am eagerly looking forward to see your lineage being developed by you. From your Huang thread in this section, I can see that you have also caught this genealogy bug after visiting your ancestral village and lucky enough to obtain your Huang clan zupu from there that traces your ancestry all the way back to Huang Di. Believe you me; both you and I are the lucky ones where our ancestral village zupu can provide the information from the offset. Huang (we refer to this surname as Ng in my southern Fujian dialect, or Wong in the Cantonese, both in the way they wound sounded when spoken in Malaysia) is also the surname of my mother as well as many of my relatives from my father's side. As such it is also one of the few surnames I am very interested in. The others are Lin (林), Li (李), Wang (王) and Yu (余). I am very glad that you have in your possession the zupu from your ancestral village. For the time being, never mind whatever discrepancies which you may find when comparing with other sources. As you dwelt deeper into your search on Huang surname genealogy, I am quite sure you would find other discrepancies as well and debates (in Chinese) on the matter. If you look at my second posting, you will find the Progenitor for Tian (ç”°) is from different parentage depending upon the source I am quoting from. This is only one on the few that I had found out so far. A couple of others I mentioned elsewhere in the SiYi Forum and there are more. The debate I am having within myself is whether to quote and discuss the discrepancies from the various sources at this junction of development of SiYi Forum or wait till the Forum has progress to even higher than the current level; the level that Henry had so kindly started recently under this Clan Progenitor References section. Originally I had wanted to post and discuss the discrepancies from numerous Chen zupu sources (I now have quite a few sources and I am still collecting) in the thread "Common Surname with Surname Chen" under Chinese Genealogy section. I have decided to slow and/or postpone that aspect of posting for the time being. My concern is that it may appear too daunting or confusing to new potential enthusiasts on genealogy who may be considering taking up this enjoyable journey of discovery on their pedigree lineage. If I were you, I will use the zupu that you now have to construct your lineage. If you are crazy enough like me wanting to find out more and more about your surname from various sources, you can then compare the differences from the various sources. In some zupu I have seen discrepancies quoting from various sources been discussed and sometime conclusion drawn on the more probable case and why. I have a set of two volumes on Huang book (I think it is more of a zhongpu rather than a zupu) in digital form. The first volume is slightly more than 1000 pages while the second volume contains names and generations which I believe are from various branches of Huang lineages. As it is in digital form and as I am illiterate in Chinese, I have yet to find time trying to figure them out. I will send you a personal message soon through this Forum regarding the Huang books I have.
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Post by benclee on Jan 20, 2009 4:55:55 GMT -5
Greetings Philip,
Yes, I definitely have caught the "bug". Like you and others I am also handicapped in not being literate in Chinese. It is a frustrating matter to have information in your hands, but not be able to understand it. I can see this endeavor will take a lot of patience and persistence. However, I do count myself as being quite fortunate to have a zupu with so much lineage information and it is such an interesting past time.
Thanks for your guidance and insight. I appreciate your views and I will proceed ahead with what I have as a baseline and then resolve discrepancies if any later.
I will check your personal message on the Huang books.
Ben Lee
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Post by philiptancl on Jan 21, 2009 10:46:20 GMT -5
I had forwarded a revision of the second chart posted by Xuangxing on January 7, 2008. Since it contained a few additions, I have requested him to post it as another chart rather than replacing the previous one. I hope the photos would give the readers a bit more color.
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