Free Chinese Genealogy Talk on Zupu

Hi Doug,

Thank you very much on your offer. I think it would be more comprehensible by adding on as English subtitle rather a second sound track. When the full translation is completed (depending when time that my friend/colleague could spare his time) I will forward the full translation as well as the recording to you.

I have slightly more than 50% done so far and the following is the results so far:

For those wishing to read the Chinese characters please select "View", "Encoding", "More" and "Unicode (UTF-8)".

Zupu (family records) is a unique Chinese cultural heritage which has been practiced since ancient times by the Han race. Gradually other races in China follow the same practice.

The practice of recording family lineage also evolved into three parallel Chinese practice of recording family genealogy in zupu (族谱), the recording national history (国史) and the recording of local history (地志).

Zupu is an important source of information for the area of study of history, demography, sociology and economy that cannot do without. Family record (zupu) is a document that is highly treasured. You can understand the history of your family ancestry through your zupu.

Family record (zupu) is a document that is highly treasured and is irreplaceable.

You can understand the history of your family ancestry through your zupu.

Title: Zupu: Continuation of Your Roots

At 8pm Lu Shang Qiao attended a lecture on "The History and Understanding of Ancestral Records" held at the Chinese Assembly Hall in Kuala Lumpur. His is 74 and born in Malaysia but has limited information regarding his ancestry.

"太公, 副太公, 位相公, 高祖舅, 曾相舅, my Grandfather, my father and then me."

Lu Shang Qiao said when his ancestors came to South East Asia, they did not continue the tradition of maintaining the family records.

Lu said that his family did not write out his family record after his ancestor settled in South East Asia.

When his father was still alive and during family conversation, he would recite each of the names his ancestor in the correct chronological order. What is imparted to him is what he knew, more than that he does not. He feared that whatever information he has would be lost, therefore he now plans to record what had imparted to him.

He is worried that he does not and then leaves them to his children and grandchildren, the younger generation would not know their roots and ancestry because they would not have any records to rely upon. All the information would be lost forever.

Professor Xu Jinding, the Head of the Oversea Chinese Research Center in Xiamen University, said that Chinese family record (zupu) is a unique Han Chinese chronological text.

When you read and understand your zupu, you would also understand your family history and the community where the ancestors were located.

When he was young his elders, when guiding him, would sometime reprimand him that "this boy is 'without record'". In the Minnan language they would say "你这个人很无谱" ("this person is without record" ). He did not then understand what the reprimand of being ‘without record’ was all about. Now he understands the actual meaning of what they were saying. What they meant was that he was very bad and did not talk rationally. When people said you are "without record", is that you without having family record (jiapu), means that you are not educated, that you lack of a proper family upbringing.

Zupu is the similar to the history of surname; it plays an important role and source of information in the study of history, geography, society, human culture and the surname family culture.

Professor Xu Jinding said, "My father surname is Xu (许) and my mother surname is Su (苏). I therefore would have the Su bloodline. My grandfather surname is Xu (许) and my grandmother surname is Huang (黄). Therefore my father would have Huang bloodline as well. Therefore I would have Xu, Huang and Su bloodlines. If this is argued upwards through logical extension, I would not know who I am. So would be the case for everyone. If this is extrapolated all the way, all Chinese would be the same and we would not know who we actually are, as everyone is similar. All Chinese would originate from the same surname. The surname would be the cultural heritage. It will follow the change of domicile; it will follow change within the family evolution. However the surname will remain intact".

Family surname record is a cultural heritage. Why do we have to compile these family records? This family record will clearly show changes in the family history, which generation member settled in which place, which generation members migrated to what other places and also records of other family history and achievements.

Professor Xu Jinding said, "If one of my ancestors migrated to Jinjang in Fujian he will become the progenitor of the Xu surname in Jinjang. If a subsequently descendant of his migrated to Malaysia, he then would be the progenitor of Xu surname in Malaysia."

In China Professor Xu Jinding found many zupus where the record terminates at the generation members that migrated overseas. Those who did so might not have continued with submission of births for updating into the zupu and therefore there would be a break in the zupu recording for that branch.

Even those who keep tab with their zupu records overseas, often these records could subsequently be lost either through moving between houses or due to the general lack of appreciation of its importance.

After a few generations Prof Xu Jinding discovered quite a number of Chinese do not know where they come from. When you asked them where they grandfather came from, they would replied "I do not know" or asked where their ancestral village is, they either would say ‘they have no knowledge” or just "from China".

Very common in China nowadays, ancestral village could have evolved to become township or municipality and one may not know where the ancestral place is actually located. Sometimes there would be others who do not have any clue where in China there are from. Then you have to ask the dialect of his mother tongue. Is it Cantonese, Hakka, Minnan or Chaozhou?

Initially zupu was maintained by government officials and later undertaken by individual families. This became very widespread during Ming, Qing and Minguo period among private individual families. Whatever old zupu you see nowadays are mainly from the period of Ming and Qing.

During 1960s movement against old traditional Chinese practices a lot of zupus were destroyed. However a lot of zupus kept by oversea Chinese were spared from such destruction and many zupu were maintained and updated.

In Penang, there exists a set Chu zupus that have the higher volume which no longer existed anymore in China. Now a duplicate copy of that volume was repatriated to China.
………

I shall post the rest when ready.

Philip

For those wishing to read the Chinese characters please select "View", "Encoding", "More" and "Unicode (UTF-8)".

I refer to the 10 minutes TV documentary in Mandarin on Chinese genealogy referred in « Reply #29 » and where the YouTube posting is at:



Due to interest in having the Mandarin language translated to English, part of the translation was posted in « Reply #31 ». I have just got my friend to assist in providing the complete translation. In the documentary readers may be interested to know the phrase méi pǔ (没谱) referred to in the Minnan dialect could be lí pǔ (离谱) in some other Chinese dialects. The following is the full translation (with some of the parts previously posted revised):

Zupu (family records) is a unique Chinese cultural heritage which has been practiced since ancient times by the Han race. Gradually other races in China follow the same practice.

The practice of recording family lineage also evolved into three parallel Chinese practice of recording family genealogy in zupu (族谱), the recording national history (国史) and the recording of local history (地志).

Zupu is an important source of information for the study of history, demography, sociology and economy: a source that cannot do without. Family record (zupu) is a document that is highly treasured.

Family record (zupu) is a document that is highly treasured and is irreplaceable.

You can understand the history of your family and your ancestry through your zupu.

Title: Zupu: Continuation of Your Roots

At 8pm Lu Shang Qiao attended a lecture on "The History and Understanding of Ancestral Records" held at the Chinese Assembly Hall in Kuala Lumpur. His is 74 and born in Malaysia but has limited information regarding his ancestry.

"太公, 副太公, 位相公, 高祖舅, 曾相舅, my Grandfather, my father and then me."

Lu Shang Qiao said when his ancestors came to South East Asia, they did not continue the tradition of maintaining the family records. He said that his family did not write out his family record after his ancestor settled in South East Asia. So whatever ancestral information his family has is what he had gathered so far. He is concerned that such information could eventually be lost. He is considering in making a start to record his family ancestry.

When his father was still alive and during family conversation, he would recite each of the names his ancestors. What is imparted to him is what he knew, more than that he does not. He feared that whatever ancestral information he has would be lost, therefore he now plans to record what had imparted to him.

He is worried that he does not do so and leave them behind to his children and grandchildren, the younger generation would not know their roots and ancestry because they longer have any records to rely upon. All the ancestral information would be lost forever.

Professor Xu Jinding, the Head of the Oversea Chinese Research Center in Xiamen University, said that Chinese family record (zupu) is a unique Han Chinese chronological text.

When you read and understand your zupu, you would also understand your family history and the community where the ancestors were located.

When he was young his elders, when guiding them, would sometime reprimand that "this boy is 'without record'". In the Minnan language they would say "你这个人很无谱" ("this person is "without record"). We did not then understand what the reprimand was all about; that we were ‘without record’. Now he understands the actual meaning of bring ‘without record’ is all about. What they meant was that we were very bad and did not talk rationally. When people refers you to be "without record" it refers you to one without having family history, that you are not educated and that you lack a proper family upbringing or ill bred.

Zupu is the similar to the history of surname; it plays an important role and source of information in the study of history, geography, society, human culture and the surname family culture.

Xu Jinding said, "My father surname is Xu (许) and my mother surname is Su (苏). I therefore would have the Su bloodline. My grandfather surname is Xu (许) and my grandmother surname is Huang (黄). Therefore my father would have Huang bloodline in him. Hence I would have Xu, Huang and Su blood me. If this is argued upwards through logical extension, I would not know who I am. So would be the case for everyone. If this is extrapolated all the way, all Chinese would be the same bloodline and we would not know who we actually are, as everyone is similar. All Chinese would originate from the same surname. The surname would be the cultural heritage. It will follow the change of domicile; it will follow change within the family evolution. However the surname will remain intact".

Family surname is a cultural heritage. Recording of family ancestry with the same surname has being done since ancient time. Why do we have to compile these family records? This family record will clearly show changes in the family history, which generation member settled in which place, which generation members migrated to what other places and also records of other family history and achievements.

Xu Jinding said, "If one of my ancestors migrated to Jin Jiang in Fujian he will become the progenitor of the Xu surname in Jin Jiang. If subsequently a descendant of his migrated to Malaysia, his line might not continue to be recorded. If he should continue in keeping his family records, he would then be the progenitor of Xu surname in Malaysia."

In China Xu Jinding found many zupus where the record terminates at the generation members that migrated overseas. Those who did so might not have continued with submission of births for updating into the zupu and therefore there would be a break in the zupu recording for that branch.

The descendants of those that went overseas could be too busy in seeking a living and might not have the time to update their family records.

Even those who keep tab with their zupu records overseas, often these records could subsequently be thrown away either through moving between houses or due to the lack of appreciation of its importance.

After a few generations Xu Jinding discovered quite a number of Chinese do not know where they come from. When you asked them where they grandfather came from, they would replied "I do not know" or "forgotten" or asked where their ancestral village is, they either would say ‘they have no knowledge” or just "from China".

Very common in China nowadays, ancestral village could have evolved to become township or municipality or changes to the boundaries and therefore one may not know where the ancestral place is actually located. Sometimes there would be others who do not have any clue where in China there are from. That would be a real challenge. You may then try to reestablish by asking the dialect of his mother tongue. Is it Cantonese, Hakka, Minnan or Chaozhou? Then you hope to estimate where there are from.

Initially zupu was maintained by government officials and later undertaken by individual families. This became very widespread during Ming, Qing and Minguo period among private individual families. Whatever old zupu you see nowadays are mainly from the period of Minguo and Qing.

During 1960s movement against old traditional Chinese practices a lot of zupus were destroyed. However a lot of zupus kept by oversea Chinese were spared from such destruction and many zupu of Overseas Chinese are treasured and continued to be updated.

In Penang, there exists a set of Qiu (邱) zupus that have the higher volume which no longer existed anymore in China. Now a duplicate copy of that volume was repatriated to China.

Zupu would normally be divided into ancestral charts, written details, portraits of ancestors etc.
Historically there are four types of jiapu, namely:
Oral jiapu (口授家谱), string jiapu (结绳家谱), chart jiapu (画表家谱) and text jiapu (卷本家谱).

As jiapu records the family line for one surname, the female members are not recorded in the zupu. Female members are supposed to be married out of the family. While married out, their children are to follow surnames of their husbands. They would not be returning to the family bearing the surname of their mothers. If the zupu is to record their names and their children, the zupu would not have records of a particular surname as other surnames would also be included.

In older time, Chinese zupu is updated every 30 years. This would be the responsibility of the head of the family. During those times, the zupu cannot be taken out simply for viewing at will. It must wait till the ceremony for venerating the ancestors. This ancient custom is sometime still observed in China.

During such a ceremony the names of all the ancestors within the zupu must be recited out first. A family record having 30 generations could consist of 6 volumes. If you have only one person to recite all the names therein, he would not be able to complete it even if you have the whole day to so. Under such a situation in the later years, 6 honorable members would be called upon to recite all the volume simultaneously.

Xu Jinding had come across a Lee family where it took 2 hours with 6 persons to complete reciting all the names within the zupu. Only upon completing the recitation could the ancestors’ veneration proceeds.

Zupu is a document for future generations. It is for the future generation to add upon, to protect and to preserve as it is a heritage to treasure.

When young you may not be thinking too extensively. When you get older you may wish to go back to your ancestral village to see your roots. However you may then not able to locate the ancestral place because you may be the third generation of overseas Chinese. Your grandfather ancestral place could no longer be the same as it was. However if you have your grandfather’s name and his original place of domicile in China, then in going there, you would be able discover your ancestry.

Now the Chinese Government is reviving the effort to upkeep family records. There is also a plan in submitting to the United Nations to classify the Chinese tradition of keeping zupu as non-material cultural heritage.

Xu Jinding came to Malaysia to seek the cooperation with the Chinese Study Center to assist overseas Chinese to revive the culture of maintaining family records. Those wishing to do so need to forward the names of their ancestors and their original address in China to the Chinese Study Center so that Xu Jinding could assist in locating their relatives still living in China. In so doing they can reconnect their ancestry blood line and rediscover your zupu.

Xu Jinding said with rapid urbanization, economic progress and the pressure placed upon society could result in the erosion of traditional cultural heritage. The on going work in continuing and preserving traditional culture heritage is to ensure they are not lost.

If the zupu of your ancestry is put in front of you, it is likely that you would want to have a look; to look at your grandfather, to look at your parents. Everyone would naturally have that instinct and desire.

Even though it takes up your time, passion and money, that desire of knowing your roots would live within your heart and if passion ignites whatever obstacles could be overcome. Keeping of zupu should be emphasized by society. Zupu is an effective and indispensable document for studying the history of the family and the society at large. Zupu provides a continuation of the family line. Zupu forms a good basis in unifying the family clan. Zupu helps to promote and develop a common value system within the family clan. Zupu also become an important pillar of spiritual well being of the family clan, more so among the overseas Chinese.

The keeping of zupu would play an important role to chronicle the history of overseas Chinese.

If we do not start doing now, the older generations would have passed away when Malaysian clan associations disappeared due to progress, then it would be very difficult to resurrect.

From the translation it would appear there is quite a few points that readers of this Forum could pick up from this TV documentary. It was aired on Wednesday January 12, 2011; a day before the subsequent 10 minutes TV documentary on Chinese genealogy where Stephen Lim and I were also featured and aired on Thursday January 13, 2011. That YouTube posting is at:



These two months I seemed to get entangled with the media with a recent one featuring on the February cover of a magazine as per below:



Philip

Hi Edmund,

Welcome to the Forum.

From you posting I note that you are Chinese educated and likely would be in the Mandarin language. If you are, could I seek a favor from you by translating the Mandarin of TV program into English for the benefit of other readers in this Forum? I find it difficult to ask my friend and colleague to do another translation for me again after spending so much time in doing the first.

Philip

Hi All,

I am pleased to share with you the transcript for the TV documentary on Chinese genealogy, which features an interview with Philip Tan. The translation is far from perfect. But, I hope it at least captures the essence of the topic discussed.

====================================================
TV documentary on Chinese genealogy
(the TV program is available at:
====================================================
Where did we come from and where we should go? This is the ultimate question in every human heart. We can know all the answers from the family tree book. Family tree book is a living history of the family.

At a seminar held in Kuala Lumpur & Selangor Chinese Assembly Hall, Chen Zhi Ren and his wife in Yu Su Mei attended the event even though Tan is not fluent in Chinese language. Chen¡¯s wife translated for him so that he can understand the content given by the presenter.

He became interested in family history after he retired and started to draw his family tree chart in 2002.

¡°When one of my aunties passed away, those who attended the funeral did not know each other. After that, I organized a gathering at my home for relatives to get to know one another. That was the first time I draw our family tree, starting from my grandfather downwards. At that time, I did not know the lineage of my ancestors going backward.¡±

Tan is the third generation of the ancestor who traveled from China to Malaya. His grandfather Chen Bao Heng came from Xiaohu, Yongchun in Fujian. He came to Malaya in 1910. He was one of the first settlers at Batu 9, Cheras, Ulu Langat.

He visited Xiaohu after his father passed away. He found the ancestral house and met with the relatives there.

He received 2 volumes of his family records from the relatives.

¡°From the book, I traced my ancestry to Huangdi who was born in 2697 BC, where all the descendants of Chinese Han are descended from.¡±

He did not know much of Chinese culture because he does not understand the Chinese language. However, he has strong interest in finding his root. So, he learnt hard and studied the family history in depth.

"By studying family history, we can understand the history and geography of China. From there, we¡¯ll appreciate history much better".

Tan keeps many books of family records, which were authored by friends who were not fluent in Chinese language. The lack of the understanding of the Chinese language does not diminish Chen¡¯s desire to study his family tree. He overcame the obstacle by using the internet.

¡°With computer, even I do not know how to put it in the digital form, but, I could follow the strokes and write the Chinese character so that I can translate in my computer. And from the computer I can see how the Pingyin is pronounced. From there, I have no problem.¡±
He compiles his family tree onto an Internet website where all the descendants of Chen in the world (and those related through marriages) who are similarly connected could find their ancestral history and get in touch with each other.

He drew his ancestral lineage in a chart and hangs it in his room. The chart started from the first HuaXia, Huangdi to the Progenitor of Chen, Hu Gong Man and further down to the first YingChuan, Chen Shi. And from the first YingChuan, Chen Shi to the first Xiaohu, Chen Hong Yuan.

He also produced a family tree for his father, wife and children.

His interest of studying the family history has grown over the years. Collecting books of family records has become his hobby. He has a collection of over 100 family tree books in just a few years. Some of his collections are very precious because they are very hard to obtain.

¡°I am addicted to collecting family tree book. Wherever I come across it, I have the desire to have it. I would borrow the family tree book from other people and scan it.¡±

He could not record the complete history of the ancestors of his father because his father passed away early. He then relied on his elder relatives to collect bits of information about his family tree.

His son is also interested in studying the family tree, which in turns, has encouraged him to continue his study of the family tree in order to provide his children and future generation a record of his family tree and history.

His nephew, Lin Ji Shun, is a member of Lin¡¯s clan, of MeiXia, YongChun, in Malaysia. He holds the post of treasurer. Lin could understand very little of his family tree book.

¡°I kept a family tree book for 20 years without any knowledge of what it was. My father passed it on to me and I just kept it. I did not know how to read it.¡±

Chen gave Lin the guidance on how to read it.

His great-great-grandfather, Lin Duo Ju was from Meishancun of Yongchun district, Quanzhou city, Fujian. His grandfather, Lin Shi Shui, came to Malaya in 1900.
Every time Lin Shi Shui had a child, he informed his clan in China of the new addition in the family through letter. His clan in China would record in the family tree book.

¡°However, this practice had been stopped when it came to my father¡¯s generation. My father had gone to China a few times to find the ancestral house, but, he failed.¡±

Lin Ji Shun visited Meishancun on April 2010. He met many relatives in China.

¡°How could I be sure that they are my relatives? I validated their relationships with my family by referring to the book of family records. I asked them who are their father and grandfather to ascertain whether they could answer me correctly¡±

The relatives there have kept books 22 different branches of family records that describe more than 800 years of family history. Lin then brought back a copy of the complete set of 22 branches of family records and from one of the branch he could add on his own family tree within Malaysia. He said the keeping of family tree records was a unique heritage of Chinese culture and we must preserve them.

Zhuang Yanduan, the deputy principle of Center for Chinese Studies, said that it is very important to keep a good record of family tree and history even though it is very time-consuming and it takes a great effort to do so.

¡°Many a times, when we study the history of those who came to Malaya, we recognized that there is a common misconception that our ancestors were sold and brought to Malaya by force to develop the land in Malaya. In actual fact, those who came to Malaya include those who were well educated and from wealthy families.

If we have some of the books of family records from the big Chinese clans in Malaysia, we might find out that their ancestors landed in Klang and Tanjung Sepat. And some of their descendents might have moved to areas like Johor, Kuantan etc.¡±

In general, there is a lack of awareness of the importance of keeping records of family tree by the public. Center for Chinese Studies has established a website for family history in 2009. The aim is to provide the Chinese community in Malaysia information about family tree and history, which includes ancestors who came to Malaya, individual family tree, complete family tree, the listing and contact of societies based on geographical place and blood or surname.

¡°We invite the local Chinese societies to actively participate in the effort to record their family tree and the history of their ancestors who came to Malaya on the website we provide.¡±

Zhuang hopes that more Chinese will join the effort to study the family tree and therefore will enhance the academic study of Chinese history in Malaysia. He also hopes that the family tree book culture will be preserved for next generations.

=====================The End===============================

Hi Edmund,

Thank you very for your translation. As you are well verse in Mandarin, I guess you could be from this part of the world. Would you by chance be from either Singapore or Malaysia?

Philip

Edmund,

Think you are right about Dr. Ir. Philip Tan -- see the following link, or simply Google "Dr. Ir. Philip Tan"

www.st.gov.my/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5289%3Adr-ir-philip-tan&catid=782&Itemid=928&lang=en

he is a very busy and acomplished gentleman, yet find time to be involved in this line of "bone digging" activity. We are indeed honoured to have him in this forum.

Regards, Ah Gin

Dear Ah Gin,

Thanks for the link. I am really Wow-ed by the accomplishments of Dr Tan.


Dear Dr. Tan,

What a small world ! Yes, indeed. I am involved in renewable energy.

The photo you posted here looks slightly different from your goodself whom I met in person. Sorry for my poor eyesight.

You have contributed a lot in the forums and guided the industry towards a better future by sharing your thoughts and wealth of experiences.

I know this may not be the right forum to say this. But, I thought I do not want to miss this opportunity to ask if you could become my mentor. It is not easy to navigate through the industry. Your mentorship will surely be able to provide me a better navigation.

Edmund