Grandfather CHINN's home village; translation

[sierratrout]

What I know to date about my grandfather:

Chinese name “Chen Shuping.” American name “Chin Sing Yuey.” Born 1875 (relatives have said in Hong Kong, but they don’t know for sure); died 1931, Oakland, California, USA. Language spoken: Cantonese, possibly See Yip dialect. Immigrated to San Francisco, California, USA before 1907. I also know that his first-born son Chan Ping On (aka Alfred Chinn) states in his Petition for Naturalization dated 2 Sep 1954 that he (Alfred) was born in “Toyshan, Canton, China.”

In my search for my grandfather’s home village, an auntie-in-law gave me a copy of a family tree which she prepared in the 1990s. The tree is in English except for the heading which consists of 24 Chinese characters. The characters were penned by a now-deceased friend of the family’s; my auntie could not remember what the characters said, and none of my family reads Chinese. I have had this heading translated by several “official” Chinese translators, who for the most part have been in agreement EXCEPT for the two characters that probably represent where my grandfather or his family was originally from. I’ve attached the complete heading. The two characters in question are the top two characters in the fourth column (from the left).

Three translators said that the fourth column can be translated: “23rd generation of the Bagong family from Puzhou.” I googled Puzhou and learned it is modern day Yong Ji, Shanxi.

One translator who delved a bit more deeply thinks that the person who penned the characters in the heading made a slight mistake with the first of the two characters which represent my grandfather’s origins, and the village name could be Chazhou (which is in Doushan Town, Taishan city, Guangdong, China). He bases his conclusion on other information in the heading, namely that both the father and son won first place in the imperial exam at the provincial level. He says, “According to the available information, in Qing Dynasty there are only five families that the father and the son are able to win the first place in the imperial exam at the provincial level, and none of them are from Yongji, Shanxi, but one of them is from Chazhou.”

I have no way of knowing if any of the above interpretations are correct or make any sense. Eventually I want to visit my grandfather’s village and of course I want to go to the right place. I apologize for any ignorance on my part – I’ve only been researching my grandfather’s history for several months with very little to go on except the above-mentioned family tree.

Any help would be so appreciated. THANK YOU!

Attachments:

[tyuti1668]

Jul 20, 2010 12:53:39 GMT -5 sierratrout said:

was born in “Toyshan, Canton, China.”
...

One translator who delved a bit more deeply thinks that the person who penned the characters in the heading made a slight mistake with the first of the two characters which represent my grandfather’s origins, and the village name could be Chazhou (which is in Doushan Town, Taishan city, Guangdong, China).
... THANK YOU!

The first so called "character" doesn't mean ANYthing in chinese.
That translator found the village (http://www.c-c-c.org/villagedb/display.cgi?level=Village&id=543 ) in Toyshan accroding to imperial exam infos & similarities btw the 1st charcter. Next step is find a guy in China to prove & trace the story in the "village" b4 ur visit (OR try the luck on ur own power ;D) . Henry's nephew provide such service in a "fair" price.

Video about same surname in that area. Some shots are in the village
www.taishan.gd.cn/html/xwdt/spxw/6790.html
www.taishan.gd.cn/html/xwdt/spxw/6833.html

[sierratrout]

Dear tyuti1668,
Thank you very much for responding. Please bear with me here; I’m not very familiar with Chinese characters and the way names (and spelling) keep changing over time is very confusing. Are you saying that the translator in question MAY have made an accurate educated guess? He claims to be a native Chinese interpreter and seemed very familiar with Chinese history. Would there be any difference between his knowledge and finding a “guy a China” to verify the results? Is “Char Chau” the same as Chazhou; and is Chazhou the same as Chaozhou? And one more question, please: Who is Henry’s nephew? Thanks again. This is all very exciting!
-- sierratrout

[Henry]

Hi Sierratrout,

Welcome to the Forum !

My nephew lives in Taishan and he has performed genealogy research for various members of this Forum. He confirms the identity & location of your ancestral village by contacting the villages chief. Then he travels to the village for meetings with the village chief and village elders. He can work with the village chief in identifying village relatives and may be able to acquire a copy of your family genealogy book for you. He charges a fee for his service and if you would like him to research for you - please contact me at "[e-mail]".

You are most fortunate that we have a Forum member, Philip, - who moderates the Chen/Chan thread and who has so generously shared his research with the Forum:

siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=clanprogenitor&action=display&thread=845&page=1

With a copy of your family genealogy book and the information provided by Philip - you can trace your family lineage back over 4,700 years to HuangDi, Yellow Emperor ( 2697 BC - 2597 BC ).


Regards,


Henry

[tyuti1668]

Jul 21, 2010 9:08:56 GMT -5 sierratrout said:

... Is “Char Chau” the same as Chazhou;
-- sierratrout

SAME thing (different dialect = different sound) *** the official modern "Pinyin" for Mandarin don't sounds right for local dialects ***
Written "chinese character" is most important !!! Examples of "sound" ONLY confession in this forum (1 2) shows JUST wild guess UNTIL ppl w/ some local knowledge involves.

[sierratrout]

Hi Henry,
Nice to meet you! Thank you for the info on your nephew. When I get a bit more village confirmation, I'll contact you. Also, thanks for letting me know about Philip. I'm very excited to be part of this forum.
-- Deborah

[sierratrout]

Hi tyuti1668,
I understand now. I guess I got hung up on the "right" spelling because it could be misleading to do google searches with the wrong one. But now I see that I have to get my village information from people who actually can see the written Chinese character. Thanks again for your response.
-- Deborah (sierratrout)

[laohuaqiao]

Deborah (sierratrout),
It's been a while since you last posted. This is in case you happen to stop by to see this or if someone here has your contact info and can forward this to you.

While researching for another inquiry on this forum, I came across Chazhou village of Liucun of Doushan in Taishan. It mentioned the village founder and his son were imperial scholars and I remembered your posts, hence the reason for reviving this thread.

I found this on a Chen family website and by coincidence this page was written by an old acquaintance of mine Hanson Chan who is from Chazhou and he wrote a bit about his Chazhou genealogy, in Chinese, here
www.chens.org.cn/fengtai/show.aspx?id=477

Hanson's great grandfather Chen (Chin or Chinn in Taishanese dialect) Shucang was the 2nd of 6 brothers. The name of the 5th brother was Chen Shuping, same or similar English transliteration as your grandfather's.

Hanson's grandfather, Chen Shucang's eldest son Yingnan, went to San Francisco with his uncle Chen Shuxiang (the 4th brother). That would place them in SF around the same time as your grandfather. However, Chen Yingnan returned to Hong Kong before the great fire of 1906 and started a restaurant business. He later went back to the village and became Liucun's chief and Chazhou's village chief.

Hanson Chan is a writer and during the 80s and 90s, he was a screenwriter for Hong Kong film director Tsui Hark. His work included a few of the Once Upon a Time, Wong Fei Hung series.
www.dianying.com/en/person/ChenTianxuan

Hanson's great grandfather and your grandfather were brothers?

[kjhong]

Hi Sierratrout,
My mother's family are Chin's from Chazhou, Taishan. You could be her sixth cousin. As laohuaqiao mentioned, Hanson Chan has written quite a bit about our genealogy on chens.org.cn. Chazhou was first settled by the father-son pair who both placed first in the provincial level imperial exams. The son Chin Bon Sim in Taishanese (陳本深 Chen Ben Shen in pinyin）had 10 sons. Hanson Chan has recreated the genealogy for all 10 sons on chens.org.cn. (My family descends from the 3rd son, Hanson and your family descends from the 8th son)

Two of the columns on your genealogy 「父子解元」,「兄弟科甲」were inscribed on the stone arch/gate in front of Cha Zhou village. A photo of the gate and description of the village were posted in Chinese by Hanson Chan: blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_6206915901012gnl.html

---

The entry for the 8th son's descendants is here: www.chens.org.cn/fengtai/show.aspx?page=1&id=510&cid=11

[Aug 27, 2014 Update:  www.chens.org.cn/fengai seems to be down.  See Hanson's sina.com blog instead:
blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_62069159010138pn.html
blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_62069159010139av.html ]

---

The following entries (in simplified Chinese) seem to match your grandfather:
- 七世祖（第八房) 树苹 玉球，第5子 移居美国，娶黄氏，生：鹊起（成兆），庶娶冯氏，生四子，合家居美国。
- 八世祖（第八房） 鹊起 树苹，之子 字成兆，娶某氏。

Roughly translated as followed:

- 7th generation (8th house/son), Shuping, Yùqiú's 5th son, immigrated to the US, married surname Huang (Wong) who had one son Quèqǐ (aka Chéngzhào),
also married surname Feng (Foong) who had four sons who also lived in the US.
- 8th generation (8th house/son), Queqi, Shuping's only son, Zi-name Chengzhao married to surname Mou.

The names of Shuping's wives and of his first son don't seem to match the information that you have, but the number of sons (1 by Huang and 4 by Feng) do seem to match.

If these are the correct entries for your family, then you can easily trace your family the rest of the way back to Huang Di. Most of the profiles are already in Geni.com. You just need to connect your grandfather to his great-great grandfather (Chén Zhī Tóng 陳之桐), who is already in my family tree in Geni.com.

--Ken

[kjhong]

Jul 20, 2010 12:53:39 GMT -5 sierratrout said:

Three translators said that the fourth column can be translated: “23rd generation of the Bagong family from Puzhou.”

Based on the discussion above, and my own knowledge of the Cha Zhou Chin Family, I would translate the fourth column (槎州八公二十三世) as follows:

     “23rd generation of the honorable eighth family of Cha Zhou"

The eighth family refers to the descendants of the eighth son of Chen Ben Shen (陳本深) who, by the same numbering, is a member of the 18th generation of Chen's to live in Taishan.

[sierratrout]

Dear Ken,

Doug from the forum was very kind to notify me of your posts. I haven't checked in for a long time as in the past few years I had spent a lot of energy trying to piece together my grandfather's ancestors and his immigration history (interviewing the few remaining of his children; searching through NARA microfiche numerous times; waiting months for USCIS documents, etc.), with no answers but a lot of new questions.

Thank you, Ken, for taking the time to respond so thoroughly to my post. I have just now had time to sit down and comprehend its significance, and am in awe that something initially posted by me in 2010 could in 2014 re-ignite the determination I once had. I need clarification on some of the things you mentioned, and will post again in a couple of days regarding this -- I need a little time to digest all that you've provided.

I am truly grateful to you.

Deborah

[philiptancl]

Sierratrout,

Somehow I am not able to get access to www.chens.org.cn/fengtai/show.aspx?page=1&id=510&cid=11 but based on what Kjhong had quoted, I interpret that part of the chart to be as follow. Hope it would be easier to visualize the relationship. Those Chinese characters in brackets are the simplified form of Chinese characters.



Philip

[kjhong]

The link to www.chens.org.cn/fengtia has been down for a few weeks. Fortunately, Hanson Chan has then same entries on his Sina.com blog:

The page with Shuping: blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_62069159010138pn.html
The page with his son: blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_62069159010139av.html

[philiptancl]

If the names identified are correct, I could attempt to construct the pedigree chart for Sierratrout if she so wishes.

Philip

[sierratrout]

Philip,
Yes, this really helps! Thank you!