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Post by vince1984 on Aug 27, 2011 15:31:35 GMT -5
Hi everyone, I am new and clueless here. Essentially, I would love to be able to trace my great great grandfather, who was born around 1850, back to his hometown, which I believe was Raoping District, Chaozhou City, Guangdong Province, before later migrating, at some point, to Shantou (Swatow) City, Guangdong Province. ---------------------------- BACKGROUND CONTEXT ---------------------------- Apparently, he was originally a 'traditional medical healer' and later was invited by a local Catholic priest/bishop in Shantou to help spread the teaching of Christianity before he himself was converted to a Catholic. Family story suggests that his son 'A Pia Te' and his grandson 'Kee Chiang (Sun) Te' (i.e. my great grandfather and grandfather respectively) were born in Shantou before the two migrated to Bangkok, Thailand around 1920 when my grandfather was around 14 years old. When my uncle went to a local church in Shantou (St. Antony Church) last year to search for any record of my great great grandfather, the priest explained that they would most likely be destroyed by the Red Soldiers in the early 1990s. His tombstone could not also be located. Further, bear in mind that buildings and records in Shantou were heavily damaged in 1922 by one of China's worst natural disasters, the 'Swatow Typhoon' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922_Swatow_typhoon), where approx. 50,000 out of 65,000 people in that city were killed as a result. My uncle has also made several attempts to ask his older relatives in Thailand and China (both in Raoping and Shantou) for any clue of my great great grandfather, but no luck. ----------------- USEFUL CLUES ----------------- 1) Tombstone of my great grandparents in Thailand: flic.kr/p/agQyE9 2) Tombstone of my grandparents in Thailand: flic.kr/p/agMKyB3) Baptism record of my grandfather (born 1907), his younger brother (born 1907 in Shantou) and his younger sister (born 1925 in Bangkok): flic.kr/p/agNYRk4) Very very rough family tree sketched by my uncle: flic.kr/p/agP5Wz(Note that since my uncle himself sketched that family tree, his usage of the terms 'my great granddad' and 'my granddad' would imply my great great grandfather and great grandfather respectively.) 5) Old family photo: flic.kr/p/agRLQ1(Note: No 1 is my great grandmother. No. 3 is my grandfather. No. 5 is my grandfather's younger brother. No. 2 and No. 4 are their respective wife) ------------- QUESTIONS ------------- 1) Besides baptism records and other religious documents of my great great grandfather, which would have all been destroyed, would there be any other 'state' documents that I could look for. More specifically, for example, did China in 1850s have the birth record system already? If birth records from that time period existed and assuming that my great great grandfather was actually born in Raoping District, Chaozhou City, Guangdong Province, where would be the best place to look for the document? Similarly, would there be any public offices that keep old death certificates (end of 1800s / early 1900s) in Shantou? 2) Are there any reliable, knowledgeable and English-speaking Chinese genealogists that I can hire to do the actual digging? If so, how much would it cost? 3) Drawing from the photos of the tombstones above, what are the standard Romanised spellings of the surnames of my 1) grandfather; 2) grandmother; and 3) great grandmother? 4) Are any of their surnames on here? --> tinyurl.com/3w8rl8w5) Do the tombstones give details of the hometown or birthplace of my grandmother and my great grandmother? If so, what are the former and current names of their hometowns? 6) I, along with my relatives, know absolutely nothing about the background of my grandmother and my great grandmother. Using the details given on the tombstones (e.g. details of their family names and hopefully their hometowns), how would one go about looking for more details about their background? More specifically, are there any public offices where one could inquire about birth and death certificates in their hometowns? I know there are several questions, but I should be extremely grateful if any of you could kindly answer / advise / comment on even just one or two of them. Thank you very much for taking the time out to read about my ancestors and questions, and I look forward to hearing back from you in due course. Yours Sincerely, Vince (27 August 2011, London)
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Post by Henry on Aug 27, 2011 16:20:24 GMT -5
Hi Vince,
Welcome to the Forum.
You have already done some good research. Since your ancestral village s located outside of the SiYi region - the usual source (Village DB ) could not be used to locate your ancestral village - and this Village DB has been down for a couple months now - anyway.
We need some of the Chinese literate members of the Forum to look at the links you provided to get the names of your ancestors and the name of your ancestral village. This will be important in terms of locating the correct branch of you family lineage from the genealogy book from your ancestral village - if a copy still exists.
Once we can identify the name of your ancestral village. I can ask a friend in China to contact the village chief of your ancestral village and ask him if a copy of the village genealogy book is available and to also identify family relatives that may still be living in the village. You can reach me at "Tomclan@Gmail.com" if you would like to hire my friend to research for you.
Regards,
Henry
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Post by vince1984 on Aug 27, 2011 18:45:41 GMT -5
Dear Henry,
Thank you very much for your prompt response and for your insights.
Indeed, I hope those members who can read Chinese might be able to help out with the names of my ancestors and their ancestral villages. Fingers crossed!
(Also, I have just e-mailed you.)
Regards,
Vince
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Post by christine on Aug 28, 2011 2:08:51 GMT -5
Hi Vince, I'm not very Chinese literate but I figure I will try my hand at this using the tools I have picked up along the way. Here is my transcription, open to interpretation: Your grandparents' headstone reads in columns, starting from the far right: 饒平黃崗鄉 pinyin: Raoping, Huanggangxiang (locality in Raoping) 聖名若瑟 translates to: "Holy name: Joseph" (若瑟 is "Ruo-se" in pinyin) 祖 is centered above the next two columns, indicates "ancestor" 考其昌鄭公 -- I think this is a full name 考 (deceased father) 其昌 "Qi Chang" the last two characters give the surname of your grandfather 鄭 Zheng (in pinyin). Zheng is one of the surnames in the LDS jiapu collection, but none of the ones available look like they belong to Shantou or Raoping necessarily. One is of an unknown location. 妣亞噯潘氏 translates to "deceased mother Ya Ai Pan surname" (潘 "Pan" is the surname in pinyin, not sure how to interpret 亞噯 Ya Ai but it seems this would be your grandmother's name, at least in a familiar sense, as "Ya" is a casual/familiar word) 墓 is centered below both the two columns, means grave/tomb. 聖名瑪利亞: Holy name "Mary" 公元一九九四年吉立 erected in 1994 A.D. So from what I gather, your grandfather, and possibly but not surely your grandmother as well, are from the 黃崗鄉 Huanggangxiang "yellow post" part of Raoping District, Chaozhou, Guangdong. Huanggangxiang may now be referred to as Huanggangzhen 黄岗镇, as xiang is an administrative division that is no longer used officially, and zhen is the current way of dividing areas within a large city or district. Your grandfather was a Zheng, and you have his name spelled Chiang, so that is a match. Your grandmother was a Pan. They used the names Joseph and Mary as written in Chinese characters it seems, and if the main columns with the names "Qi Chang" and "Yai Ai" are names as well, then these are their Chinese names. I am only unsure if these are their given names because I haven't seen names written in this order, it is customary for the surname to come first and the given name to follow. Perhaps someone else on this forum has better understanding than I do. This headstone was put up in 1994. Next headstone, your great-grands: [first column on far right is same info as the first headstone, Raoping County, Huanggangxiang area] 聖名__格 -- "Holy name __ Ge" (I cannot make out the first character of your greatgrandfather's name) 考乙炳鄭公 -- deceased father 乙炳 "Yi Bing", 鄭 Zheng surname. I believe this is your greatgrandfather's Chinese name. 妣亞脯張氏 deceased mother 亞脯 "Ya Fu", 張 Zhang surname. This looks like it would be your greatgrandmother's Chinese familiar name. 聖名亞加大 -- Holy name "Agatha". This would be your greatgrandmother's Christian name. 公元一九九四年吉立 erected in 1994 A.D. The common thread is the Zheng surname and the location within Raoping of Huanggangxiang, which I think is now Huanggangzhen. There is no village name mentioned so far. Here is a map of Huanggangzhen, the probable locale of your ancestors' origin: maps.google.com/maps?q=%E9%BB%84%....adius=1.65&z=14I hope this helps a little! Christine
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Post by vince1984 on Aug 28, 2011 6:10:41 GMT -5
Dear Christine,
THANK YOU VERY MUCH for taking your time out to read my very long post, and to also shed me some light on the info' given on my ancestors' tombstones.
1) May I ask which (Chinese characters) software did you use? Can it be used by non-Chinese speakers, like me?
2) I'm pleased to hear that at least we can narrow down from Raoping to 'Huanggangxian' / 'Huanggangzhen'. Too bad, the tombstones do not mention the name of the actual ancestral village.
(For whatever reason, the URL link of the Google Map page you have kindly mentioned kept bringing me to a certain 'Coffeyville Country Club' in Missouri)
3) Following my post, a few people have e-mailed me with their versions of the translation. One of which is below:
1. Great-Grandparents: ZHENG Yu-ping (Luke) ZHANG A-pu (Agatha)
2. Grandparents: ZHENG Qi-cheng (Joseph) PANG A-ao (Maria)
As you can see, the translated names are extremely similar to your version, although with a number of subtle differences e.g.
Your version:
1. Great-Grandparents: ZHENG Yi Bing ZHANG Ya Fu
2. Grandparents: ZHENG Qi Chang PAN Ya Ai
Would this be mainly due to the different dialects?
Regards,
Vince
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Post by Doug 周 on Aug 28, 2011 8:56:56 GMT -5
1) May I ask which (Chinese characters) software did you use? Can it be used by non-Chinese speakers, like me? Vince, Look at the link in my signature footnote below. Let me know if you need more help. I also re-summarized some information in this response to bashka: Re: How to get Chinese characters into the computerclickDoug
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Post by vince1984 on Aug 28, 2011 9:50:26 GMT -5
Dear Doug: Thank you very much, I will certainly have a look at the recommended software! Dear both Christine and Doug, 1) I have noted that both of you have also contributed to another post concerning Chinese family crest of arms (http://siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=arts&thread=1095&page=2#8810). I found them to be fascinating! I have done a bit of investigation and it appears that this crest (http://flic.kr/p/ah5SvG) might be that of my grandmother's clan (Pan or 潘). Would you be able to confirm if it's the right one? And if so, do you know where can I find out more about the meaning of the crest and of the family / clan? 2) I have not be been able to locate the crests of my other ancestors' clans, namely that of my great grandfather (Zheng or 鄭) and that of my great grandmother (Zhang or 張) from the following collection www.cxgjdq.com/bjx/tuteng.html#t3Might you be able to shed some light as to where can I find these two clans' crest? 3) Generally speaking, what was the purpose of these Chinese family crests in ancient time? Who designed them? Are they still of any use to anyone nowadays? Look forward to hearing back from you. Once again, thank you very much in anticipation of your kind advice. Regards, Vince
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Post by Doug 周 on Aug 28, 2011 16:10:51 GMT -5
Vince, I know very little about totems and family crests. I mistakenly believed these items were solely a European (or non Asian) phenomena. I was pleasantly surprised when someone identified my surname's totem on this forum. Remember that there are very few surnames in China. "100 surnames cover 85 percent of China’s citizens...... By contrast, 70,000 surnames cover 90 percent of Americans" from: NYT~Name Not on Our List? Change It, China SaysclickRegarding crests and totems, I am a newbie and would like to learn more also. Doug
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Post by mugenpower168 on Aug 28, 2011 22:22:45 GMT -5
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Post by vince1984 on Aug 28, 2011 23:13:05 GMT -5
Dear mugenpower168,
Thank you so much once again! You have been extremely helpful with your translations of the inscriptions on my ancestral tombstones, and now with my ancestral clans' family crests! They looked fabulous by the way. I will try to learn more about the clans and their associated crests, using the 'Google Translate' application, along with some guesswork of the their not-always-reliable translations.
Dear everyone,
Would it be fair to say, given the few Chinese surnames available for the large Chinese population, that not everyone with the same Chinese surname is blood related, even when their genealogies traced back hundreds of years?
More specifically, the fact that I share the same surnames as some of the Chinese royal families thousands of years ago does not necessarily imply that I am somehow DNA-related to members of those royal families, am I?
Could it be the case that, at some point in the past, my ancestors decided to adopt a more well-known surname just because they wanted to earn a higher regard in society?
Cheers,
Vince
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Post by vince1984 on Aug 29, 2011 0:15:20 GMT -5
Also, does anyone have any luck contacting the Overseas Chinese Affairs of Guangdong (http://gocn.southcn.com/english/)?
I have e-mailed them via two of their e-mail addresses: gdsfqb@gdnet.com.cn and gdqw@gdnet.com.cn, but they all bounced back.
Anyone has a functional e-mail address of the organization?
Thank you very much.
Vince
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Post by christine on Aug 29, 2011 10:39:33 GMT -5
Hi Vince, See my responses numbered accordingly below your original post: 1) May I ask which (Chinese characters) software did you use? Can it be used by non-Chinese speakers, like me? 2) I'm pleased to hear that at least we can narrow down from Raoping to 'Huanggangxian' / 'Huanggangzhen'. Too bad, the tombstones do not mention the name of the actual ancestral village. (For whatever reason, the URL link of the Google Map page you have kindly mentioned kept bringing me to a certain 'Coffeyville Country Club' in Missouri) 3) Following my post, a few people have e-mailed me with their versions of the translation. One of which is below: 1. Great-Grandparents: ZHENG Yu-ping (Luke) ZHANG A-pu (Agatha) 2. Grandparents: ZHENG Qi-cheng (Joseph) PANG A-ao (Maria) As you can see, the translated names are extremely similar to your version, although with a number of subtle differences e.g. Your version: 1. Great-Grandparents: ZHENG Yi Bing ZHANG Ya Fu 2. Grandparents: ZHENG Qi Chang PAN Ya Ai Would this be mainly due to the different dialects? 1) Yes I used nciku.com. It can be used by anyone with enough detail and determination to find exactly the right character using the mouse "drawing" input method. You must also understand when your are using a simplified character versus traditional. When nothing is found in the dictionary definitions at nciku, I paste the character in to wiktionary and usually find more there. Use English as the language setting at wiktionary, and paste one single Chinese character at a time to do a look-up. 2) try this: maps.google.com/maps?q=huanggangzhen,+raoping,+guangdong,+china&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&gl=us&z=14&vpsrc=0 3) I gave you the pinyin version (Mandarin Chinese romanization). The other version you have is the Cantonese version. Both are correct and are variants based on dialect. If you want to be extremely accurate in person in Huanggangzhen or with people that will recognize your ancestors name by sound and not necessarily by characters, you will want to use the Teochew dialect, which is quite bit different than both standard Cantonese and Mandarin. Teochew is a Minnan dialect, closer to Vietnamese language in sound. Using an online Teochew dialect dictionary www.mogher.com/eng/, you might pronounce the names like this instead: 1. Great-Grandparents: ZHENG Yi Bing (Pinyin) turns into: TE Ik Peng ZHANG Ya Fu (Pinyin) turns into: TIU Ah Pou 2. Grandparents: ZHENG Qi Chang (Pinyin) turns into: TE Khi Tshiang PAN Ya Ai (Pinyin) turns into: PHUA Ah Ai/ăⁿ [this last character has differences based on whether it's used formally or informally, you may listen to the different pronunciations here: www.mogher.com/eng/%E5%99%AF]So, one name you initially supplied is written in someone's romanized version of the Teochew pronunciation: - "Kee Chiang (Sun) Te" = Khi Tshiang TE.
- "A Pia Te" I'm not so sure about this one and you might want to look further in to this and see if your great granddad had any other aliases.
Finally: Shantou Overseas Affairs email: try stwsqw@hotmail.com or stwsqw@faost.gov.cn The Overseas Affairs office general website's English version is extremely outdated. I tried the Chinese version and got something else entirely, and the Shantou office specifically lives here: www.faost.gov.cn/gb/home/home.aspGood luck! -christine
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Post by christine on Aug 29, 2011 10:55:37 GMT -5
Sorry, your overseas affairs office should be Chaozhou, not Shantou! Here is where it lives online www.chaozhouqw.gov.cn/And email is: General: "chaozhouwq@ 163 .com" I put spaces in here because the domain keeps getting partially deleted, just remove the spaces before and after "163" For Raoping (your ancestral home): rp_qwj@chaozhouqw.gov.cn
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Post by vince1984 on Aug 29, 2011 11:10:01 GMT -5
Thank you very much once again, Christine, for your prompt response for your wealth of knowledge!
I'll e-mail all of them now!
Please wish me luck : )
Warmest Regards,
Vince
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Post by Doug 周 on Aug 29, 2011 12:12:33 GMT -5
...that not everyone with the same Chinese surname is blood related, even when their genealogies traced back hundreds of years? Vince, Chinese people did take and change different surnames, especially with power politics played out. Also, adoption was common in China. Check footnotes 1-3 on this wiki: How to Startclick. So, what you are delving into is the concept of DNA or genetic genealogy, versus family history or relationships. This is a discussion amongst many (not specifically Chinese) genealogist. I have run up against trends with 'politically correct' people very adamant about not using the term genealogy. The implication is the term genealogy indicates 'gene' related. This group's preference is the term family heritage. You might look at this site: Family in Scientific Genealogyclick. Does 'blood line' really matter? Not to me, but others might take this older hard line position. Then, you have to DNA test everyone in your extened family. You might not want to know the secrets you uncover. IMHO, Doug
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