Zheng family from Panyu (鄭/郑)

[ira]

Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum. I am working on my wife's genealogy, who is Chinese (Hakka) from Malaysia. Luckily, decades ago we obtained some details on her ancestry from the family - at least for a few generations with most lines going back into China. So I thought I would post some info here to see what suggestions/ideas you all may have for us to go further back in time.


First, I want to ask a quick question. I have seen some beautiful charts posted by Philip Tan (and reading other sources online) am I correct to assume that all with the surname Zheng (郑) are descended along the male line from Duke Huan Gong of Zheng (Reign 806-771 BC)?


Here is the male line starting with my wife's father (Will look at other female lines later):
Father: /Chang/ Mook "Ah Har" - born in Ipoh, Malaysia
Grandfather: /Chang/ Kim Shung - born in Panyu, Guangdong 1897 (first day fifth month Chinese Calendar) - died 1997 (at 100 years old)    
   His wife: /Fong/ Kooi Lan - also from Panyu, 1896-1991
Great Grandfather: /Chang/ Chee Pooi (no dates)
    His wife: /Lau/ Yoke
2nd G Grandfather: /Chang/ Seng Fook (no dates)
    His wife: /Wong/ Piang Foong

Thank you in advance for any advice/ideas. Ira

[philiptancl]

Hi Ira,

Thank you for the personal emails to me. I have not follow the Forum for quite a while and as such I had not seen this posting. I was quite busy with other things besides going to my ancestral village in Yongchun County to attend this year annual gathering of the main ancestral hall for my Tan/Chen (陳/陈) clan. This occurs during each Winter Solstice to pay respect to our earlier ancestors who settled at that place. More than 50 of us from Malaysia attended the event this year. The lunch banquet this year had to accommodate 98 tables; each table for 8 people. During my stay there my first cousin once removed (Stephen Lim) managed to track down the ancestral village of his maternal grandfather having the surname Ng/Wong/Huang (黄). We have been trying to locate the ancestral village for quite some years and we managed to locate it this time around. Whilst we managed to contact the nearest relative still living there and the ancestral hall, it was unfortunate to discover their ancestral records were destroyed during the social-political movement that took place in China from 1966 until 1976. Though we have the zupu for the Yongchun County, it may be difficult for us to trace complete ancestry of that line. My Huang cousins would have to track down their ancestry beyond their grandfather from the ancestral tablets in the village main ancestral hall during their visit there in the future. It is possible that a number of generations would still be missing.

While we were there, my wife and I went to her clan ancestral hall and that of her grandmother. I had already previously traced their pedigree lines from their ancestral records I already have in my possession.

The restoration of the ancestral hall built by my grandfather 100 years ago, is now completed (except for some minor works that I asked to be carried out while I was there). Some of his descendants and I shall be going to the ancestral village again in May next year (May 15, 2015) to attend the guān dēng zuò zào (觀燈做灶) ceremony. I understand that the ceremony is to be conducted by a Taoist priest and would start from midnight till the morning.

As your query and from the material you emailed me, I can see that you had already trace your wife Zheng/Chang/Tay (鄭) ancestry for 5 generations; i.e. up to her great-great grandfather Zheng Cheng Fu (Chang Seng Fook)( 鄭呈福). His ancestral village is somewhere Guangdong, Panyu (廣東番禺). The 5 generations is shown in the chart below. In your email, you inquire how close my ancestral village from Song Yuan (松源) is. My ancestral village is in Yong Chun County and I have shown its location on the map you had provided for which I reproduced on the chart below.



Your initial email is firstly in trying to find out which cemetery in Ipoh, Malaysia is the grave Chang Seng Fook located and from there the location of the grave Chang Seng Fook itself. From the gravestone of one of your wife’s other ancestor, only 廣東 番禺 were engraved without quoting the name of the particular ancestral village or origin. Subsequently you clarified that your objective is to try establishing the pedigree line beyond Chang Seng Fook. For that, you need to establish the ancestral village in Panyu your wife Zheng/Chang/Tay (鄭) clan originated from. The purpose of this is to see if the ancestral records still exist and/or whether there is a recent update. If the ancestral records could be found, then it is likely you could achieve your objective.

I do not think finding the grave of Chang Seng Fook would provide you any further light on the ancestral village. Most graves in Malaysia would normally provide the ancestral province and the ancestral county. Your wife has considerable number of relatives in Malaysia and it is a matter getting the right one to tell you the name of the ancestral village in Panyu. Some may already know it or they may have old correspondences or such written information left to them by their forebears or they already have the ancestral records without realizing it. You asked whether I could talk to some of them to solicit some answers. If they are able you converse in English, I shall try to do that. Email me the names and their mobile phone contacts. It would be a better bet if they are older in age. With the name of the ancestral village, you can then proceed to the next course of action.

If that is not successful, others in this Forum may be able to provide the villages in Panyu that mainly have people with Zheng/Chang/Tay (鄭) surname. It is also possible that Zheng/Chang/Tay (鄭) in Panyu may collectively publish a zupu for most villages there.

Philip

[ira]

Hi Philip,

Thank you so much for your lengthy and detailed response to my inquiry. Most all of my wife's relatives speak English. I will discuss with her about possible ones that might know and get back with you. This course would help us to try to locate the village in Panyu where her ancestors came from.

However, the gravesites may provide "dates". I do not have birth and death dates on her great-grandparents or 2nd-great-grandparents. That would be nice to have. I also keep wondering if she has some older relative in Malaysia that may have actually kept any family records, with names, dates and places. Maybe not, but if genealogy records were so important in China, it makes me wonder if some of that desire carried over with someone in the family to Malaysia.

I will get back with you. Thanks again for all your kind help and advice.

Ira

[ira]

Hi again Philip.

I just have to compliment you again on the very beautiful charts you create. Thanks for the one you created on my wife's ancestry.

My wife called her sister in Malaysia today to see if she could help her ask around to relatives to see if they can find the village name. So we shall now wait and see. I have looked online - such as wikipedia for Panyu and there seem to be quite a large number of villages or sub-districts. 

I will keep in touch.

Thanks, Ira

[philiptancl]

Hi Ira,

If the paternal side of your wife’s ancestry originated from Panyu (番禺), the general understanding here in Kuala Lumpur is that the dialect there would not be of Hakka dialect from that area. It is an area which we normally consider as "Cantonese" speaking. Maybe other Forum members could verify it.

The maternal side of your wife would be of Hakka origin. From what you had provided me, your wife immediate ancestries for both the paternal side and the maternal side would be as shown is the chart below.



Getting the Jiapu/Zupu would traditionally provide you the dates and time of birth and death of your ancestors, their other names Zi (字) and Hao (號), important positions and titles they held, name(s) of spouse(s) with their dates, times of birth and death (maybe from which clan they are from), names of children. The gravestone may or may not necessarily provide you the dates of birth and death. Some may provide the date of death and in many none at all. Some would not even provide the province and county of origin. While the gravestones you found so far do provide the dates and time of birth and death, do not expect this to be for every case. Finding the ancestral records would be the Holy Grail in tracing one ancestry and information you are seeking.

While endeavoring wherever I can in assisting others, guiding them how to go about in finding their ancestry, seeking out the ancestral records or the ancestral halls etc at their ancestral places is not even remotely one of my ability. Even when going to my ancestral county, I normally go with a tour group. From the hotel, I would be taken by my relative(s) to my grandfather house and not finding my way there. As such I do that think I would be able to understand your request of finding your wife maternal side ancestral records and place in Songyuan (松源) and/or Jiaolingxia (蕉嶺下) for you when go to Yongchun in May 2015. I am not even conversant in my own dialect, let alone the Hakka or Cantonese dialects. Further seeing a county as a dot is the map of China can be very misleading of the task involved. For example Yongchun is just a dot on the map your map you provided. But expanding it to go to my ancestral house can best be illustrated on the illustrations below.



I would therefore suggest you either use the services of either Henry Tom's nephew or use the services of Huihan Lie (李伟汉), the founder of My China Roots (中华家脉); the website is at www.mychinaroots.com. His mobile phone is [phone] and email is [e-mail]. Another internet friend (originally from Penang but now in Perth) had very successfully use My China Roots to find his ancestry hall and records in Hainan. Provide him the information you have so far and ask him for an estimate of the cost. I would suggest you do both the paternal and maternal sides of your wife at the same time.

Philip

[liuyao]

I just wanted to mention a fact that may or may not be relevant here.

In Qing times, Panyu could very well mean simply the city of Canton (=Guangzhou). It's a practice that even many Chinese aren't aware of: the "ancestral home" is by convention referring only to the county name, and big cities like Canton were under the jurisdiction of two counties, the names of which are often unfamiliar to non-locals. Beware that each county also includes large rural areas outside the city.

For examples:
Canton is divided between Panyu and Nanhai
Fuzhou: Min and Houguan
Beijing: Wanping and Daxing
Suzhou: Wu, Changzhou and Yuanhe (the only 3-county city)

Since the fall of Qing, there have been a lot of changes in jurisdiction in urban areas, while most counties away from big cities have remained roughly the same. Panyu has become just a district in the city of Canton (and is much smaller in size), and the wikipedia entry presumably is referring to the Panyu district.

I am not at all familiar with genealogy in southern China. Others on the forum may have experience with local names in Guangdong, and may be able to testify.

[ira]

Thank you Philip and Liuyao for your messages. 

All this discussion is very helpful for me in understanding what to do going forward.

Back in 1987 when my family was in Malaysia we very specifically asked some questions of my wife's grandparents and they actually pointed on maps (in Chinese) and wrote the Chinese characters for us - so there are a few things I am reasonably certain about. I am reasonably sure that the paternal side really is Hakka, although they did live in a Cantonese area. He spoke Hakka to the family decades ago when he was alive. He also specifically pointed to Panyu and wrote the characters and not Guangzhou as his home. At the time I did not realize Panyu was such a large area or I would inquired more details on the specific village, but alas all her grandparents are now gone. However, having said that, I could be totally wrong as I am not familiar at all with the area.

Thanks a lot Philip for giving me the names of people I can contact to further help with this research (and another nice chart)!

I now have somewhere I can go to pursue this further. This is a very helpful forum! Thanks so much.

Ira

[philiptancl]

Hi Ira,

Before you get the help from Henry's nephew or Huihan Lie, I would suggest that you explore further whether any family member from both sides of your wife to see if they have a copy of Jiapu/ Zupu that is kept somewhere collecting dust. They might inherited them but do not realize the significance or importance. I found the Jiapu/Zupu for four surname clans related to me through marriages.

Philip

[ira]

Yes, my wife is working with her sister in Malaysia to see if by chance there is any additional info we can get.

Thanks again, Ira