Lee family from Toisan, Chonglou, 冲蒌镇台山西坑东成村

[splee]

Tombstone inscription of Great Uncle Peng Yim.doc (724 KB)

Hi, I'm doing a bit of research on our family root (our surname is Lee 李), and I wonder if anyone can help us pinpoint the village our great grandfather came from. I've attached a picture of our greatgrandparents tombstone with their village inscription on it. The second picture is the tombstone of our great uncle, who was our great grandparents's third son.

Thank you. 

[twoupman]

Your ancestral village at 台山市冲蒌镇西坑东成村 is located at GPS:22.146621, 112.796472

twoupman
houseofchinn.com

[splee]

Dear twoupman, thank you for your help to pinpoint the area, as my pinyin is not great, and we're mainly Cantonese speakers these days. It's a real shame that we do not speak the Toisan dialect as we assimilated into our modern society.

If anyone is reading this, we wonder if you've got any pictures or information pertaining to  Xikeng Dongcheng village? We think it's a small tiny hamlet, and any pictures of it, particularly, of a village hall where the ancestors' information and tablet are kept would be wonderful.

Also, are there any other Lee's around from the same village?

Thank you again for your help.

[LJ]

Hi splee,

Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures pertaining to Dongcheng, but try googling pictures of it. You can also find some information about Dongcheng on the Village DB website's entries for the village of Tung Sing (東成) and heung [rural (area)] of Lau Pak (蔞北鄉). As for Xikeng, I think the Village DB entry is the one for the village of Sai Hang Bo (西坑堡), but the last part of the name, Bo (堡), may indicate that village is a totally different place.

In any case, you may be pleasantly surprised that my maternal grandmother's paternal grandfather Lee You Fon (李佑寬 or 李祐寬) and his Lee elders, siblings, and cousins were from Xikeng, specifically from the village of Nan'an Village (南安村) near Dongcheng. I'm not sure about the relationship between Xikeng and Nan'an, but I'm assuming that Nan'an is also a hamlet within Xikeng. Using twoupman's coordinates for Dongcheng, I found a Google Map of the area around the hamlet. The map shows that Nan'an is southwest of Dongcheng. Google Map's directions from Nan'an to Dongcheng indicate that travel time by foot is 2 minutes, and the walking distance is 160 meters. With the two hamlets being so close, perhaps you and I are closely related. Do you have any genealogy books on your Lee side? I haven't found mine yet, but so far, based on research at the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) and a family tree of my great-great-great-great-grandfather Lee Sing-Jiang (李承章), I have discovered that my Lee lineage is:

Name	Relationship to Me	Notes
Lee Hing Yick? or Yen? (李慶?)	Great-Great-Great-Great-Great-Grandfather	Name obtained from name of one of two ancestral halls in Nan'an and assumed to be named after ancestor Sing-Jiang's father, based on character Hing (慶) preceding character Sing (承) in the poem, and based on assumption that ancestral halls are named after ancestors (the other hall, Sin Jeung Ancestral Hall, sounds like it is named after Sing-Jiang.
Lee Sing-Jiang (李承章)	Great-Great-Great-Great-Grandfather
Lee Tin Fat (李天发)	Great-Great-Great-Grandfather
Lee You Fon (李祐寬 or 李佑寬)	Great-Great-Grandfather
Lee Yik Yen [李奕(楨/禎?)]	Great-Grandfather

The Chinese Genealogy website's Generation name poems page has poems that can help identify the lineages of families. Each character in such a poem marks a generation and is in fact used in the names of members of that generation. The poem that best fits the sequence of generation characters Sing (承), Tin (天), You (佑), and Yik (奕) is:
尚書房之班派

慶承天佑、奕世永昌
顯楊偉業、休有烈光
家傳忠厚、仁澤孔長

Best regards
LJeung

[splee]

Dear LJeung,


Thank you for looking into my request and for all the information you’ve provided. It’s absolutely fascinating so far. I’ve looked at the village database, but I can’t work out what I’m looking at. I’ll make a note of your observation, and re look again. Unfortunately, we’re not going to be able to use the NARA site as we’re Malaysian Toisanese, not American Toisanese! Our side of the family has moved around quite a bit since, and a few of us are residing in different countries now.


I’ve also stumbled across four maps posted by Henry on another topic, and I’m very excited to note firstly, it’s in Romanised Cantonese (which means I can guess the area) and secondly, that Sai Hang (Xikeng) is listed on one of them.


My grandfather used to say to me, “Always remember … Choong Lau, Sai Hang, Tung Seng Chuen … that’s our heung ha. Remember too that you are a Sunning yan”.


Now, my grandfather and two of his siblings were actually born in Malaya. He had older siblings who were born in Toisan. I would take it that his own father ground their origins into their minds so that they did not forget.


On the subject of generation name, my grandfather and his brothers were given the character 炳 (Peng in Cantonese/Bing in Mandarin). As he had older siblings born in China, one of my leads will be tracing our origins using their generation name. I haven’t worked out how yet, and I need to confer with the rest of the family on their thoughts.


However, one very interesting fact was the name they used on their “jiu pai” (signboard for their businesses).
 My grandfather’s business is called 三 益 (Sum Yick). His brother’s was called 光益 (Kwong Yick). I believe there was a 天益 (Tin Yick) too belonging to another brother but I can’t be sure. Now, the question is whether the character 益 (Yick) has any bearings on the origins of their generation.


As for Dongcheng and Nan’an neighbouring villages, I remember that during Ching Ming, we would burn joss sticks on a grave that sits next to our great grandparents. It was always said to us that he was from the neighbouring village, practically right next door, and related as well. Interesting fact! I will ask my family to take some pictures of the tomb engraving at the next Ching festival.


I don’t know anything about generation poem. I’ll have to ask my family if that rings a bell to them. The problem we have is that my grandparents’ generation have all passed on. I’m hoping that some of the older members of my family will remember. Fingers cross!

[LJ]

Dear splee,

You're welcome. I was happy to look into your request and provide you information, and I'm glad you find it absolutely fascinating so far. I'm sorry you can’t work out what you're looking at when you look at the Village DB. The Village DB pages that I provided you show information about Dongcheng (Tung Sing/東成), Xikeng (Sai Hang/西坑), and the heung, area, and county (district) they're locating in. The romanized names of these locations are according to the romanization system used in the Index of Clan Names By Villages. This index was published by the American Consulate General in Hong Kong in 1973. For more information about the Village DB, please see the About page of the Village DB. I hope my observations help.

I'm sorry that you aren't going to be able to use the NARA site. So, you don't think any of the relatives that you know of ever resided in the U.S., even though your side of the family has moved around quite a bit since becoming Malaysian Toisanese, and a few of you are residing in different countries now? Perhaps, you can use your country's equivalent of NARA?

Incidentally, how long has your family lived in Malaysia?

I’ve also seen the four maps posted by Henry on that other topic, Village Database Maps. Looking at the full-sized version of the map of Toishan again, I do see Sai Hang. I also see the term "bo" or "bou" (堡) listed together with the term "minor heung" under the Boundaries section of the map legend. The map legend also states that the boundaries of "Minor Heung and Bou (堡) [are] not shown", that "the location of minor heungs and bo within major heungs are shown by placement." In addition, the Note for the Reprint Edition link on the Village DB's About page states, "Prior to 1949, like districts elsewhere in China, Toishan, Sunwui, Hoiping, and Chungshan were divided into areas, which in turn were divided into smaller jurisdictional groupings of villages termed heung (鄉) or bo (堡)." So, the "Bo" part in the name Sai Hang Bo (西坑堡) means that Sai Hang is a grouping of villages.

For some reason though, Nan'an is not listed on the Village DB entry for Lau Pak Heung.

What your grandfather used to say to you is important genealogical as well as cultural information. I'm glad he used to say that.

I don't know if you know, but Sunning is the former name of Toishan.

Since Dongcheng and Nan'an are both within Sai Hang Bo, I would expect that your Lee side and mine are closely related and therefore have the same generation name poem. Do you know if the generation name of 炳 (Bing) of your grandfather and his brothers was for birth names or marriage names? Do you know the generation names of your great-grandfather, father, and yourself? Based on my family's files at NARA, I think the generation name of my great-great-grandfather Lee You Fon's birth name is 爻 (Ngau), although for some reason, he pronounced it as Yuk. Is the lead tracing your origins a descendant of one of your grandfather's older siblings? I think in order to trace your origins, he or she would need to visit Dongcheng and ask for a copy of the genealogy book for your family or village. In any case, I look forward to finding out what he or she discovers!

I don't know if the character 益 (Yick) has any bearings on the origins of your grandfather's generation. It might simply be a character used in a group of family businesses. My great-great-grandfather himself owned and managed a boot and shoe (靴鞋) factory and store called Wa Lung or Wah Lung (和隆), later renamed Wah Lung Chung Kee (和隆昌記), and perhaps due to his being the face of the business, he was mistakenly called Wa Lung or Wah Lung by at least one of his Caucasian suppliers and maybe one U.S. census enumerator.

It's definitely an interesting fact that the grave next to your great-grandparents' graves belongs to a male relative from a neighboring village. I look forward to seeing any pictures that your family takes of the relative's grave!

As you research your Chinese genealogy, your knowledge of generation poems will accumulate. If generation poems don't ring a bell among older members of your family, the next best thing is to ask these relatives for the marriage names of male ancestors. My fingers are crossed, too!

Best regards,
LJeung

[LJ]

Hi splee,

I just digitized and romanized the names of your great-grandparents and great-uncle as inscribed on their headstones:

Relative	Name in Chinese Characters	Name in Romanization System of Village DB	Notes
Great-Grandmother	佘氏安人	Sher See On Yan	氏 (See) is a title meaning "maiden name"; 安人 (On Yan), "landlady (old) / wife of 員外 [landlord (old usage)]"*
Great-Grandfather	李公宗修	Lee Kung Chung Sau	公 (Kung) is a title meaning "honorable (gentleman)"*
Great-Uncle	李芹悦	Lee Kun Yut

* The meanings in the Notes column are from MDBG.net and are based on context.

LJeung

[charlesli]

Please contact me for some photos and history chonglou
I'm from the same village, my uncle used to worked for yuor grandfather in Kuantan.

[mlj]

Hi LJeung,

I'm trying to learn about my Lĭ 李 family ancestors in Xīkēng 西坑 village, Chònglóu 冲蒌 township.  I don't have a genealogy book to go on, just some copies of letters written to my great grandfather, Lĭ Wĕishèng 李纬圣, during late Qīng and early Republic times.

I'm interested in what you found at the NARA that was helpful to your research.  Is that where you learned about the two ancestral halls in Nan'an 南安?  Any help you can provide, such as links to specific documents on the NARA website or document titles to search, would be greatly appreciated.

Best, Mark 

[LJ]

Dec 20, 2015 0:46:26 GMT -5 mlj said:

Hi LJeung,

I'm trying to learn about my Lĭ 李 family ancestors in Xīkēng 西坑 village, Chònglóu 冲蒌 township.  I don't have a genealogy book to go on, just some copies of letters written to my great grandfather, Lĭ Wĕishèng 李纬圣, during late Qīng and early Republic times.

I'm interested in what you found at the NARA that was helpful to your research.  Is that where you learned about the two ancestral halls in Nan'an 南安?  Any help you can provide, such as links to specific documents on the NARA website or document titles to search, would be greatly appreciated.

Best, Mark 

Hi Mark,

I'm glad to hear you also have Lĭ ancestors from Xīkēng, Chònglóu, as we might be closely related. I'm sorry though that you don't have a genealogy book to go on; I don't either. But thanks for letting me know about the letters to your great-great-grandfather Lĭ Wĕishèng 李纬圣 (or in traditional characters, 李緯聖). What did you find out from them? Can you post them? If you prefer to keep them private, can you send me a message with the letters as attachments?

Incidentally, is your great-great-grandfather's name, Lĭ Wĕishèng, his míng 名 (or huì 諱?) name? Since he was from the same bo 堡 (bǎo) or minor heung 鄉 (xiāng 乡), Xīkēng, as my Lĭ ancestors, I'd expect that he'd be closely related to them and have a name, zì 字 (or hào 號?) derived from the same generation poem as theirs.

At NARA, I found out a lot that was helpful to my research. As I mentioned in previous posts, I found out several generations of my Lĭ family's lineage, with the noted assumptions, and my great-great-grandfather Lee You Fon's birth (or what I assumed to be his birth) name's generation character. But yes, it was from NARA where I learned about the two ancestral halls in Nan'an. Although the NARA website does have Resources for Genealogists, it currently doesn't have online any specific documents like the arrival and departure documents from which I found information helpful to my research. So, unfortunately, I can't provide any links to these documents. You'd have to make appointments to visit NARA facilities in order to view the paper versions of these documents.

If you'd like to know more about what I found, please let me know. I'll be more than happy to help you on your research.

Wishing you Happy Holidays!
LJeung

[LJ]

Dec 29, 2015 0:55:18 GMT -5 LJ said:

Dec 20, 2015 0:46:26 GMT -5 mlj said:

Hi LJeung,

I'm trying to learn about my Lĭ 李 family ancestors in Xīkēng 西坑 village, Chònglóu 冲蒌 township.  I don't have a genealogy book to go on, just some copies of letters written to my great grandfather, Lĭ Wĕishèng 李纬圣, during late Qīng and early Republic times.

I'm interested in what you found at the NARA that was helpful to your research.  Is that where you learned about the two ancestral halls in Nan'an 南安?  Any help you can provide, such as links to specific documents on the NARA website or document titles to search, would be greatly appreciated.

Best, Mark 

Hi Mark,

I'm glad to hear you also have Lĭ ancestors from Xīkēng, Chònglóu, as we might be closely related. I'm sorry though that you don't have a genealogy book to go on; I don't either. But thanks for letting me know about the letters to your great-great-grandfather Lĭ Wĕishèng 李纬圣 (or in traditional characters, 李緯聖). What did you find out from them? Can you post them? If you prefer to keep them private, can you send me a message with the letters as attachments?

Incidentally, is your great-great-grandfather's name, Lĭ Wĕishèng, his míng 名 (or huì 諱?) name? Since he was from the same bo 堡 (bǎo) or minor heung 鄉 (xiāng 乡), Xīkēng, as my Lĭ ancestors, I'd expect that he'd be closely related to them and have a name, zì 字 (or hào 號?) derived from the same generation poem as theirs.

At NARA, I found out a lot that was helpful to my research. As I mentioned in previous posts, I found out several generations of my Lĭ family's lineage, with the noted assumptions, and my great-great-grandfather Lee You Fon's birth (or what I assumed to be his birth) name's generation character. But yes, it was from NARA where I learned about the two ancestral halls in Nan'an. Although the NARA website does have Resources for Genealogists, it currently doesn't have online any specific documents like the arrival and departure documents from which I found information helpful to my research. So, unfortunately, I can't provide any links to these documents. You'd have to make appointments to visit NARA facilities in order to view the paper versions of these documents.

If you'd like to know more about what I found, please let me know. I'll be more than happy to help you on your research.

Wishing you Happy Holidays!
LJeung

Happy New Year, Mark,

I read your post on the Looking for Li, Chin, Chui and M connections in Taishan thread and noticed that the second character 聖 sëin (圣 shèng) of the given names of 李緯聖 Lī Vīsëin (李纬圣 Lĭ Wĕishèng), your great-grandfather, and 李總聖 Lī Dūngsëin (李总圣 Lĭ Zǒngshèng), his younger brother, are the same. I think this character must be the generation character of your great-grandfather and his brother. As I mentioned in my previous post, since your great-grandfather was from the same bo (bǎo), Xīkēng, as my Lĭ ancestors, I'd expect that he'd be closely related to them and have a name, zì (or hào?) derived from the same generation poem as theirs. If so, then 聖 sëin (圣 shèng) must be from a generation poem for the míng (or huì?) names of your Lĭ ancestors.

Otherwise, if not, then that character must be from a different generation poem for your Lĭ ancestors' zì (or hào?) names. The Generation name poems page of Kevin Lee's former website Siyi genealogy 拋磚引玉 provides some candidate zì (or hào) generation poems that contain the character in question:

侃袓子孫之班派
Lee Hon's descendants

毓元啟應、夫宜奕至
履秩秉睿、允昌會成
修道立德、象賢希聖
學宗孔孟、儒紹周程
楊名上國、建績大庭
聯芳濟美、世祚詒榮

侚袓後裔國泰公子孫之班派
Lee Chun's Descendants

脩文宏道、宗聖希賢
迺祖南來、長發其祥
濟美多士、奕世永昌

侚袓後裔江漢雲漢
二公子孫之班派

華維繼孟須世良
廣業文明聖道昌
德煥慶章日啟耀
學宗唐周粵東長

佁袓子孫之班派
Lee Yee's descendants

晉有聖基、廣衍雲礽
偉烈始興、奕世永昌

Best regards,
LJeung

[mlj]

Hi LJeung,
   Thank you for your interest and your willingness to help.  And sorry for my slow response.  

   The letters to my great grandfather concern family and business matters in Táishān County 台山县, Jiāngmén 江门, Hong Kong 香港, Springfield (Massachusetts), and New York City.  All the letters were intended as private, and the people involved have long passed on and are no longer able to correct any mistaken impressions.  So I'm not comfortable sharing the letters.  But I'm happy to share a family tree and a list of all the names and relationships, family and business, if you'd like it.  I have this information in an Excel workbook.  Is that format OK?

   My understanding of my great grandfather's name, Lĭ Wĕishèng 李緯聖, comes from these letters.  Since the letters were all written by members of his generation or of younger generations, I assume that Wĕishèng was his courtesy name/style (biǎozì 表字), not his given name (míngzi 名字).  In the United States, my great grandfather used "Wey" as his surname.  I don't know the reason for the change, but since he immigrated in 1885, three years after the Chinese Exclusion Act, one possibility is that he entered as a paper son.

    To my knowledge, my great grandfather married three times, once in China and twice in the United States (the second marriage ended in divorce).  On the marriage certificate for his third marriage (to my great grandmother), his parents names are listed as "Lee Chung Wey" and "Lena Quong".  But I don't know the characters for these names, whether the surnames are listed first or last, or whether Lee Chung Wey is only the name of his paper father. 

   So I'm not sure where that leaves me regarding the two ancestral halls in Nan'an 南安 or the generation poems that you helpfully provided.  If the names in the halls and in the poems are all míngzi 名字, I won't be able to make a connection that way.  I'm planning on traveling to Xīkēng Cūn 西坑村 this year, bringing the information that I have and pictures of my great grandfather.  At the moment, it seems like a long shot to conclusively add to my family tree or to find second cousins.  But it will be an interesting trip either way.  Any insight or advice is much appreciated.

   Best regards, Mark

[LJ]

Hi Mark,

I completely understand why you are not comfortable sharing your ancestors' letters, as I feel the same way about my own ancestors'. Thank you, though, for offering to share a family tree and a list of all the names and relationships, family, and businesses instead. Yes, the Excel format is okay.

From what I have learned about biǎozì 表字 (hào 號?), I think your understanding of your great-grandfather's name, Lĭ Wĕishèng 李緯聖, is logical, as traditionally, only members of a man's older generations could address him by his given name (míngzi 名字).

I agree with you that one possibility for his change of surname to Wey is that he entered the US as a paper son. I think another possibility is that the Wĕi 緯 part of his name somehow became his surname. What was the rest of the name he used in the US?

Thanks for providing the names of his parents. If the name Lee Chung Wey were the name of his biological father, then a third possibility for the surname Wey would be that the Wey syllable of your great-grandfather's father's name became the surname of both men. If two generations used this surname, then did later generations also use it?

Your great-grandmother's American-sounding first name Lena implies that she was either born in the US or immigrated there at a very young age and went to school there.

Have you tried searching for your great-grandfather and great-great-grandparents' US records under these names?

Regarding the generation poems that I provided, I think that if the name Lĭ Wĕishèng 李緯聖 was indeed your great-grandfather's biǎozì 表字, then the character shèng 聖 in his name was from a biǎozì 表字 generation poem different from my Lĭ ancestors', perhaps one of the alternate poems I provided in my previous post. I tried to determine if any of these other poems was your Lĭ ancestors', by assuming that Lee Chung Wey was your great-great-grandfather and that the name Lee Chung Wey was his biǎozì 表字, and then by looking for a character that sounded like the syllable Chung or Wey immediately preceding the character shèng 聖. Unfortunately, I couldn't find such a character (although in the first of the poems, 侃袓子孫之班派 Lee Hon's descendants, I did find a character, xī 希, hei1 in Yale and Jyutping Cantonese romanization, that seemed to rhyme with Wey).

And regarding whether the names in the ancestral halls and generation poems are míngzi 名字, I think those names are all biǎozì 表字, as the names of my known Lĭ ancestors, the names that I provided in an earlier post, are used by contemporaries or members of younger generations.

So, the differences in biǎozì 表字 generation names of our respective Lĭ ancestors may mean that you and I are not closely related.

Thanks for letting us know about your trip to Nan'an 南安. I hope you find your second cousins, as well as names that you can add to your family tree. In fact, I hope you find your generation poem and more importantly, your zúpǔ 族谱 and jiāpǔ 家谱 there. Perhaps, we can then find out how we are related.

Best regards,
LJeung

[mlj]

Hi LJeung,

   I appreciate your continued interest and help. If the names in the ancestral halls are indeed courtesy names / biǎozì 表字, that’s exciting. I have a much better chance.

  In response to your questions, to my knowledge, my great grandfather’s parents never came to America. So the spelling of the names of his parents, whether birth parents or “paper parents”, on that marriage license may simply reflect the fact that the clerk was not Chinese.

  My great grandfather was buried in Bristol, Connecticut, as “William Lee Wey”. There are no characters on his headstone, or other mention of his Chinese name. My knowledge of his biǎozì 表字, and of other names of relatives in China and business partners all come from the letters. My grandfather’s generation all had Lee as their middle name and Wey as their family name. And later generations use Wey as their family name.

   How should I send the family tree and the list of names and places mentioned in the letters? Is there a way to do this through Siyi Genealogy that I haven't seen yet? Or should I just attach to an email?

   Best regards, Mark

[splee]

Hi charlesli,

Just seen your message. I've been snowed under and therefore, remain quite on this forum. However, I did go back to Kuantan last August. Much has changed.

Please can you let me know your uncle's name?

Regards, splee.