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Post by jukkak on Jan 26, 2017 14:58:55 GMT -5
Dear Chen Clan Colleagues,
The first Chen ancestor to come to Guangdong Province was Chen Fengtai and through his seven sons, the Chen Clan propagated throughout Guangdong Province and then outwards to many oversea locations in the world.
For the descendants of Chen Fengtai, who are researching the lineages from the seven sons of Chen Fengtai, I would like to propose a collaborative effort to identify the missing generations and resolve the discrepancies found within the existing lineages. I would like to say that we are all members of this branch of the great Chen lineage and we should cooperate and share our knowledge and lineages for existing members of the Chen Clan and future generations.
If you would like to participate, please email me at [ gene.chin.369@gmail.com ] your complete contact information and your existing Chen lineages. When everyone has registered, we can share among all the lineages and any genealogy books, and monographs with all.
Mr. Howe Kee Chan, with an extensive knowledge of the Chan Clan, has graciously consented to help me in this noble effort.
I sincerely hope you will join this effort. Welcome to all :-)
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Post by philiptancl on Jan 26, 2017 23:46:25 GMT -5
It is fantastic that Jukkak is taking the lead in researching and collating the lineages from the seven sons of Chen Fengtai. Even though my ancestry is not from Guangdong but from Fujian, I am willing to join in this collaborative effort as I have quite a number lineages descended from a few of the seven sons that I already charted out for forum members and elsewhere. I shall be forwarding them, less the names of the forum members themselves and their immediate families, to Jukkak from time to time. I have also the photocopy of a zupu entitled 汶村陈氏族谱 updated in 1995 consisting of more than 613 pages; of which 21 pages are monographs and 592 pages of individual profiles. The copy was passed to me by Henry Tom in 2008 and it is too huge a task for to digitized the names and compile it into chart form. Generation 1 of this zupu is the 5th son Chen Kai (陈恺). If Jukkak wants to include this as well, (if no copy in digitized form is available elsewhere), I shall forward it to him. I also have 3 other lineages from Guangdong (other than the many I have from Wenchang (文昌), Hainan (海南)) that are not descended from any of the seven sons. Their lineages, earlier than those when in Guangdong, have yet to be ascertained. I wonder whether Jukkak would want to include these as well. On my part I am trying to collate into a big chart of lineages descended from Chen Xiao Wei (陈校尉) who moved to Yongchun (永春) in 956 AD. The chart that I had compiled so far and printed into a large scroll for our main ancestral hall in Hushan (岵山), Yongchun (永春) is shown below. The scroll measured about 5 feet in height and 6 feet in width. These photos are of current people from various parts of Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Zhejiang, Yongchun and Singapore.
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Post by jukkak on Jan 27, 2017 13:07:31 GMT -5
Philip, we truly welcome your willingness to join in this effort. Your expertise in genealogy will enable our efforts to go forward. I know you have done a great job in charting all those lineages. The scrolls you produced are always a great hit. We gave away the third scroll (from Chen Shi to Chen Fengtai) as a prize during my mom's 95th birthday celebration. Recently when I gave a talk on Taishanese (Hoisanva) in New York City's Museum of Chinese in America's Genealogy Workshop where I showed all four scrolls from the Yellow Emperor all the way to my grandchildren. There was a lot of interest in the Yellow Emperor scroll.
We will cherish everything you forward to us. Please forward the 613-page photocopied version of 汶村陈氏族谱 as we do not know of any digitized copy's existence. Please also include the other zupus from Guangdong even though they may not be descendants from Chen Fengtai. I had always thought Chen Fengtai was the first Chen to live in Guangdong. These may proved my theory to be incorrect.
I was in awe when I saw your chart of 陳忠公 and his descendants. This is the kind of chart I would like to emulate.
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Post by helen on Jan 27, 2017 16:48:30 GMT -5
I am interested in this statement : Guangdong Province and then outwards to many oversea locations in the world. I am a Chan, from Sa Chuen village, in Zengcheng. Would your research include this area?
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Post by jukkak on Jan 27, 2017 19:16:02 GMT -5
Our mission is to find the descendants of 陈凤台[陳鳳臺] Chen Fengtai (a.k.a Chen Hui 陈辉[陳輝]) regardless of where they live. Are you a descendant of Chen Fengtai or one of his seven sons? If so, we would like you to participate. If not, any help you can give us would be appreciated. Your map shows me your village may be 广东增城市沙村[廣東增城市沙村] Shacun, Zengcheng City, Guangdong Province. If you copy and paste 广东增城市沙村 into the search box in Baidu Map, you should get a circle 1 pointing to Shacun. Attached is the map I got from Baidu map. However this does not look like your map. I could not find Sa Chuen or Shacun on your map. Do you have the Chinese characters for the village you are interested in?
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Post by mitrophan on Feb 12, 2017 15:33:17 GMT -5
Is there a map starting maybe within Guangdong that plots where all the seven sons and their descendants migrated and settled in? It'll be interesting to see how the distribution spread out and does any village have descendants from more than one son of Chen Fengtai residing in the same village? I assume the more urbanized centers like Taicheng in Taishan may have that type of melting pot affect where people flock from the villages looking for work, as well as overseas.
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Post by Henry on Feb 18, 2017 17:00:10 GMT -5
Mitrophan, I believe this is what you are requesting Fengtai / Chen Hui: Henry
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Post by mitrophan on Mar 25, 2017 8:03:27 GMT -5
I've a zupu that says 陳提領 the eldest son of 陳高才, son of 陳志, son of 陳齡山, son of Chén Nài 陳鼐, 121, 80, 33 (https://www.geni.com/people/Ch%C3%A9n-N%C3%A0i-%E9%99%B3%E9%BC%90-121-80-33/6000000003224335676 ), lives in Liucun, Taishan 住朗美六村. Does anyone have any more details on descendents under 陳提領. I've someone whose father was descended from that branch whose ancestral village is 紫洞村. If so, this would be outside of Chen Fengtai's seven sons also in Taishan.
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Post by Doug 周 on Mar 25, 2017 10:39:37 GMT -5
mitrophan, The manager of that Geni line is one of our moderators and has participated on this thread. Hopefully your post here will ping him to help answer your question. If not, private message here or via Geni.
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Post by philiptancl on Mar 26, 2017 4:51:00 GMT -5
Hi Mitrophan, In many cases the zupu for an ancestral village may just show the ancestry up to a certain generation level. For descendants of Chen Fengtai and his seven sons, I have seen quite a few that provides the ancestry just up to Cheng Fengtai level. The cases in point are yours and Gene Chin. Normally it is more the case of finding the zupu from the ancestral village and then establishing connection upwards. Unless someone in this Forum who originates from the same ancestral village and already has the zupu, obtaining the zupu from the ancestral village is one of the logical solutions. The case you referred to for Liucun, Taishan 住朗美六村, the person in question was not descended from Chen Fengtai and his seven sons. The ancestry branched out a few generations further back as shown in the chart below. There are other branches of Chen clans that settled in Guangdong but not descended from Chen Fengtai and his seven sons. For example, when Chen clan of Yimen (義門陳氏) of over 3,700 members in De An (德安) in Jiangzhou (江州), today’s Jiujiang (九江), was compelled, during the reign of Renzong of Song (宋仁宗), to be divided up and scattered, many of the members settled in various parts of Guangdong. This is also shown in the chart below.
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Post by philiptancl on May 20, 2019 15:34:01 GMT -5
The following are my notes on the surname Li(李).
The Surname Lee/Li(李)
According to census, the Li (李) surname is the most populous family name.
There is a story about the history of the origin for the family name "Li." Ancestors of the Li family had secured an official position titled "li guan (理官) (judicial official)" in the court. The surname of Li then was "Li (理)", Li as in "dao li (道理) (sense/reason)" not Li (李) as in "Li zi (李子) (plum)." The Li family had secured this official position for generations. Later on, "Li (理)" was used as their family name, meaning they used their official position as their family name, "Li (理)" as in "dao li (道理) (sense/reason)". This was during the Shang Dynasty. During that dynasty there was a tyrant name King Zhou of Shang (商纣王). Probably, the king either had not carried out his duties properly or he could have done something indecent, the judicial official at that time, the li guan (理官) in the court, criticized him. The king was so offended that he ordered the judicial official to be beheaded. On learning about this, the judicial official's wife and children hurried to escape as they too would follow the same fate. They became refugees on the run. Through their escape, the widow and her children grew so wearied that they could not proceed any further. So they rested under a tree. While resting on the ground under the tree, they looked up and noticed that the tree was laden with fruit.
At that time, fruits on trees were commonly called "mu zi (木子)" locally. From the tree is the wood (木); wood of a tree. The son (子) of the wood (木) from a tree is the fruit. Combining the radical “wood (木)” and the radical “son (子)”, the resulting character is “Li (李)”. 木 + 子 李 . "Li zi (李子) is (plum)." The family wondered whether the fruit of that tree was edible. They tried those fruits and the fruits allayed their hunger and thus saved their lives. Since they survived with the help of the fruit from the tree, they decided to change their family name into "Li (李) (plum)" from "Li (理) (sense)". That is, from "Li (理)" out of "dao li (道理)" to "Li (李)" composed of "mu (wood)" and "zi (son)." So that family survived. That is the origin of the family name "Li (李)". The origin of the family name "Li (李)" is thus from the fruits from the tree.
Later the "Li (李)" became a major family name. How then did that come about? As the "Li (李)" multiplied, there were many famous figures. In the Han (汉) and Wei (魏) dynasties, in Longxi (咙西), namely in Gansu (甘肃) area, the family name "Li", originally was in the minority, but developed to become very powerful. Li Shimen (李世民) and his father Li Yuan (李渊) of the Tang Dynasty were from this minority family surname. Before the Tang Dynasty, i.e. before Li Yuan (李渊) and subsequently Li Shimin (李世民) ascended to the thrones at the beginning period of the Tang Dynasty, people with surnamed Gui (崔), Wang (王) were from the famous big families with power and influence. The Li family where Li Shimin (李世民) came from did not have enough stature at that time, so he wanted to be connected with these famous big families by way of marriage, but he was refused. Later, Li Shimin seized political power by force and became the Emperor Taizong of Tang as the second emperor of the Tang Dynasty. Thus Li Shimin became powerful upon ascending to the throne. In the past, the nobles from families of power and influence had looked down upon him before ascending to the throne. So he asked his copy clerk to draft the "Records of Clans (氏族志)" which was the first officially compiled monograph on family names in the Tang Dynasty of China. He placed the family name "Li (李)" as the first place in the list. In actuality, he spread the idea that he, as the emperor, also had the family name of the nobles. Moreover, from the perspective of marriage system at that time, emperors had many concubines. As such, he had many children through the system of concubines. Thus all of his off springs were with surnamed Li. All his children were also nobles as they were conferred with ranks of nobility. So the Li (李) grew stronger and stronger. This is one aspect on the growth of the surname Li (李).
Second, to expand his strength, he gave the family name "Li (李)" to many people from the minorities and to famous meritorious ministers; on those that had not been with the surname Li originally. Since the emperor gave them the family name Li they changed their family names to the one given by the emperor though their original surname is not Li. Later multiple nationalities blended into the main stream. Therefore, the Li family name had a wide range of sources.
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Post by philiptancl on May 23, 2019 1:54:49 GMT -5
Following are from other notes on the Li (李) I had collected: Changing of Surname
The surname of for some current people may not be of the same surname as what their own ancestors had in the past. While most people do not change their surnames or given names, there are some people who did. In the past, should the emperor might grant you a surname you would be obliged to adopt it. Such situations did occur quite often during past Chinese dynasties. For ofexample, during the Tang Dynasty (唐朝), there was a senior general by the name Li Shiji (李世勣). Later, during the reign of Emperor Gaozong (唐高宗), Li Shiji (李世勣) was known as Li Jī (李勣). This is because the "Shi (世)" in his name had to be dropped in complying with the naming taboo of not having the same name with the emperors because the personal name of Emperor Gaozong's predecessor, Emperor Taizong (Li Shimin (李世民)), had the same Chinese character "Shi (世)". Li Shiji originally surname was Xu (徐). He was born Xu Maogong (徐懋功), a hero of Wagangzhai (瓦崗寨). Xu Maogong (徐懋功) made meritorious service in Wagangzhai (瓦崗寨), and later he served the Tang Dynasty and made great contributions to the Tang Dynasty (唐朝). Emperor Gaozu of Tang (唐高祖帝) granted the surname Li (李) to him. After he was with the changed surname of Li (李), his descendants all would carry the surname Li (李)as well. As such, his surname was changed from Xu (徐) to Li (李). But later Wu Zetian (武則天) took the throne of the Tang Dynasty (唐朝). Li Jingye (李敬業), Li Ji's grandson, who was later called Xu Jingye (徐敬業), because rebelled against Wu Zetian (武則天). The rebellion was suppressed by Wu Zetian (武則天). He was punished, and his surname was changed back to Xu (徐). So his surname reverted back to Xu (徐) again. There is an interesting side story to this Xu (徐) clan. While Xu Jingye (徐敬業) rebelled against Wu Zetian (武則天), but his uncle Li Siwen (李思文), that is the son of Li Ji (李勣), supported Wu Zetian. So this uncle Li Siwen (李思文) fought against Xu Jingye (徐敬業), the nephew. So this clan had two surnames. How is that? The uncle's surname, originally Xu (徐), changed to Li (李), and then changed to Wu (武). This was because Wu Zetian was the ruler, was grateful to Li Siwen (李思文) for supporting her in fighting against the nephew, Li Jingye (李敬業). She granted the imperial surname Wu(武) to him. Since he accepted the surname granted by the emperor, it was much likely that the surname would be passed down. When his descendants trace the clan history, they would know this event and realize that they are actually descendants of the Xu (徐) clan. People surnamed Wu (武) or Li (李) may come to know that they are actually descendants of the Xu (徐) clan and their surname changed because of these historical events that happened in the Tang Dynasty (唐朝).
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Post by philiptancl on May 29, 2019 7:17:09 GMT -5
Hi Steppeson,
Chen Fengtai (陈凤台) has two wives. The surname of the first wife is with surname Kuang (鄺/邝) and through her, Chen Fengtai had four of his seven sons. The father of Chen Fengtai first wife, Kuang (鄺/邝), is Kuang Zhun (邝谆). Kuang Zhun too has two wives. Wife one is from of surname He (何) while wife two is of surname Feng (冯). I do not know whether of Chen Fengtai first wife, Kuang (鄺/邝), is from Kuang Zhun wife He (何) or from wife Feng (冯). I have not done the ancestry for anyone with the surname Feng (冯) based upon any of Feng (冯) zupu. As such I know nothing about the history for this surname. Kuang Zhun (邝谆) father is Kuang Yi Ping (邝以平); born Sep 14, 1103, died Oct 8, 1166. Kuang Yi Ping (邝以平) is the progenitor for the surname Kuang (邝) in Guangdong (广东). Originally his surname was Fang (方) but he changed it to Kuang (邝) in the year 1121.
Philip
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Post by ian54 on Apr 29, 2020 21:23:57 GMT -5
Jukkak,
Are you still gathering and collaborating on this site regarding the Chen/Chen descendants of Chen Feng Tai? Our Chen relatives at Lianjiangli village in Enping are descended from his son Mo. Is your email address gene.chin.369@gmail.com still working? Ian
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andytan
Member
If you'd like to reach me, please feel free to send me an email via tomguojie@gmail.com
Posts: 85
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Post by andytan on Apr 29, 2020 21:39:58 GMT -5
I'd like to participate in this genealogy project as well.
My family was from Taishan, Guangdong Province, and it is believed that my paternal great grandmother from the 陳氏 who came from 水步村 or 水步鄉 might have originated from Chen Mo.
My email is tomguojie@gmail.com
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