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Post by jeremychin on Aug 16, 2017 22:11:57 GMT -5
Hope I could get some help and advice here! I have always known my ancestry to come out of Southern China. I have done a lot of research into my genealogical roots over the past year and have been able to identify all of my villages coming out of both Toisan and Kaiping (with help from some of the great people here and on FB). Taking a DNA test seemed like the next logical step to confirm everything I knew. So about 3 weeks ago, I took a 23 & Me DNA test, and I recently got my results! Expecting 100% Chinese, I was very surprised to say the least. So as you can see, I was quite shocked and confused at the same time. My cousin on my mothers side also has taken the test and had gotten 99% Chinese, so that leaves the culprit to be on my fathers side. I spoke to my Grandfather about this and he was steadfast in the fact that we are all "pure blood" Chinese. He feels that the dna results are completely inaccurate! What do you all think? Should I take these results with a grain of salt or should I look into this more seriously? I mean, 14.5% is no small number! If I were to look into this more, where would I even start? I guess jiapus for my grandparents might help? Although is if it was a wife that was southeast asian, jiapus may not do much at all? I thought I had it all figured out, but I guess not! For your reference, my grandmother was a Tom out of 集成里, 開平 villagedb.friendsofroots.org/display.cgi?level=Village&id=6045, and my grandfather was born a Cheung (he was adopted) out of 西井, 台山 villagedb.friendsofroots.org/display.cgi?level=Village&id=2430. Could these villages maybe have something to do with possible historical migrations into those areas? I thank you all in advance!
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Post by Doug 周 on Aug 17, 2017 10:48:30 GMT -5
Was your grandfather adopted from within the clan or from outside? The majority of Chinese adoptions had the former type of adoption. There is always variable about the algorithms used by a company. One example was where identical triplets had different ancestry proportions. The company (23&Me) ‘adjusted’ the algorithm to ‘fix’ that. Finally, contrary to conventional western folklore, the science time & again confirmed no genetic marker for a particular race. Studying the statistics, phenotype of a particular race have no specific genetic identifiers. This is because both the chance variability of passage of genetic material AND the chance intermingling of your individual parents’ own paired DNA nucleotide. IMO, this article sums up what I am trying to explain: Everyone Has Two Family Trees – A Genealogical Tree and a Genetic Tree
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Post by gckimm on Aug 17, 2017 18:42:45 GMT -5
Hi Jeremy:
The article that Doug recommended was very interesting and informative. (Thanks for sharing that, Doug!)
I too have tested my DNA with 23andMe. However, my result of 95% Chinese and 5% Southeast Asian did not really surprise me, as I have long suspected that one of my great-grandmothers may not have been 100% Chinese. She came from Guangxi Province 廣西省, a place from which few people came to America in the 19th century. It is also a place with a large number of people belonging to an ethnic group called the Zhuang 壯族. This is why today it is called the Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region 廣西壯族自治區.
In addition to Doug’s point about variability, it is also important to remember that not all people in China are ethnic Chinese. There are many different ethnic groups; in fact, the first flag of the Republic of China (1912) recognized this diversity by having five colored stripes to represent five major ethnic groups: Han, Manchu, Mongol, Hui, and Tibetan. Over the course of Chinese history, many people of the various ethnic groups intermarried with the Han, the largest ethnic group and the one to which people generally refer when they speak of Chinese people. So it is not difficult to imagine that some people who think of themselves as 100% Chinese may have an ancestor or two from a different ethnic group (perhaps classified by 23andMe as “Southeast Asian”).
Greg
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Post by jeremychin on Aug 17, 2017 20:44:34 GMT -5
Hi Doug,
Thanks for your reply and the interesting information! My grandfather was adopted outside of his clan into a Chin family a little south of his birth village. I never knew that it was more common to be adopted within the clan.
The article you shared was very interesting and makes a whole lot of sense, but I never really though of it in that way. So if I am making the right deduction, everyone (every ethnic gene) in your genetic tree is somewhere in your genealogical tree, but not every person on your genealogical tree is represented on your genetic map? So that 14% is somewhere in my lineage...
Hi Greg,
All the different ethnic groups make things kind of confusing since there are so many! And they don't just populate just 1 region but they mix around between different countries. But I guess these ethnic minorities would have origin countries? As for Guangxi, since it borders Vietnam, there could some Vietnamese mix at some point in your history? Now if I had an ancestor that was not Han, but one of the minorities such as Miao, Zhuang, etc. wouldn't it still fall under Chinese in these tests? I think Wegene (currently not working), breaks down Chinese into those different groups. But if Wegene came up with Mongol, then I should have both an ethnic Chinese percentage and a Mongolian percentage as well.
So, south east Asia to me would mean those specific south east Asian countries like Thailand, Vietnam, Laos, Myanmar, Indonesia, Malaysia etc. Whether or not it is actually a Chinese ethnic minority with close ties to one of those countries, or a Han equivalent of country: ____, those would seem to be the two possibilities. Did I make any sense ? Haha
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Post by gckimm on Aug 17, 2017 21:49:21 GMT -5
Hi Jeremy:
I can't say for sure but I am guessing that 23andMe does not have enough data to identify specifically lesser-known groups such as the Miao and the Zhuang, so the DNA has to be identified generally by the term "Southeast Asian." As for whether or not minority group DNA would be classified as Chinese, that would depend on where the samples came from and how carefully the samples were classified.
I will also share with you that I had my DNA tested with Ancestry.com and those results did shock me: they said that I was 11% Polynesian! Now that I do not believe at all, as that is historically impossible: Polynesians did not settle in China and my ancestors were too poor to do much traveling. But it is possible that some ethnic groups in China could have DNA similar to the DNA found in Polynesia--just as some ethnic groups in China probably have DNA similar to DNA found in southeast Asia.
Some of the lessons I have learned from DNA testing: 1) Don't believe everything you see (DNA testing is not perfect) and 2) Accept that there will always be some mystery in the family tree.
Greg
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Post by Doug 周 on Aug 18, 2017 10:13:54 GMT -5
Jeremy, With 23&Me most of my efforts are on DNA Relatives under Tools. I try to contact the matching relatives, but get few responses. Of the replies, I get useful information only if the respondent has done their genealogical homework. I am looking for cousins connected to my extended family whose lineage were lost for various reasons. My father-in-law’s parental lines are missing from the destruction in China during WWII. My mother's father’s jiapu has been lost from the ancestral hall. I am looking for my wife's mother's side. Her lineage research suffers from the Chinese cultural norm that her mother becomes part of the husband family. 23&Me does not have many mainland Chinese DNA samples. Most of the matches are from people of Chinese heritage who have migrated to western countries including South America. There are legal prohibitions of taking DNA samples out of China. I have yet to upload my raw DNA to GEDMATCH.com or WeGene.com . The reason is that I have been burned by sharing my family tree with public family tree programs like MyHeritage, Geni, and Ancestry. They own your information and you cannot unshare your information. The closest match I obtained was from 1.85% DNA shared with DZ to my maternal uncle. Finally, I got a ping from someone whose 23andMe-DNA test shows a connection to my mother’s brother. However, comparing our genealogic trees, we only have a distant connection with my father’s side. There is no DNA sharing with neither my siblings nor sons. The reason might be sample size. 23andMe does not do a complete genome analysis (about U$3000 although technology may have dropped the price recently). We may have to wait for further technological improvements. ~Doug
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Post by ginagaladriel on Aug 19, 2017 10:57:10 GMT -5
With you guys being male you can trace both your mother and father's lineage easier with the Haplogroup, what does yours say? maybe it an offer some light?
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Post by Doug 周 on Aug 20, 2017 8:12:28 GMT -5
Gina,
I have not tested myself because I have my father’s immediate ancestry worked out. I concentrate sampling selected relatives looking for specific lineages.
I hope my mother’s brother Y haplogroup will be able to reproduce the classic 杨 zupu in Zhongshan. Same with my wife’s father’s Y haplogroup to reproduce the classic male lineage 謝 zupu in Panyu. By classic, I am alluding to the male lineage emphasis of the zupu. I have my wife’s mother’s and son’s mDNA haplogroup to try to trace her 叶 women from Nimbo. I have skipped testing myself because I have my son's Y DNA.
The lack of Chinese DNA in the western world is a major limiting factor to the value of genetics. Again, IMO one needs to have completed their classical genealogy (tracing their family history and ancestral villages) to hopefully make use of the genetic material. I get request for DNA matches from western parents of adopted Chinese children desperately looking for kid’s ancestry.
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Post by jeremychin on Aug 20, 2017 23:36:11 GMT -5
Greg,
Polynesia! That is indeed and interesting one. Maybe I have to do an ancestry test as well then and see how the two results differ. Haha. But you are right, DNA testing is not completely accurate. Only time will improve results as bigger sample sizes are available to draw from...
Doug,
So this DZ person, is the grand kid of your mothers cousin on her mothers side? Did I understand that right? I have been looking at the family finder and it seems as though most of the matches that come up have under .4% shared dna with the most at .6%. and with a range of 3rd to 6th cousin, it doesn't seem so promising.... I guess I will have to just try and randomly connect with some of them just to see? Wait another 5 or so years for the Asian DNA pool to increase I guess...
It's so sad to find out that historical artifacts relating to your families lineage was destroyed for good. I have heard that some villages in those situations are trying to get as much information from the last remaining village elders that had direct contact with those books and other written material destroyed during all the wars and political turmoil. Research on females are always harder as they were left out of all the trees. The only hope would be to find some sort of written record in the village itself or maybe a village tombstone could shed some light?
I have my tree on GENI only to find out shortly after the tree to pop up in google search result. Fortunately, as far as I know, most of my family is okay with it. - Jeremy
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Post by jeremychin on Aug 20, 2017 23:53:13 GMT -5
Hi Gina, I am very new to understanding the whole Haplogroups thing, but as you mention, it can be a critical tool to connecting certain dots? How can I use my haplogroups to ascertain more information about my lineage and tracing back? 23and me doesn't seem to have much information on my haplogroup? - Jeremy
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Post by Doug 周 on Aug 21, 2017 9:46:08 GMT -5
... How can I use my haplogroups to ascertain more information about my lineage and tracing back?... Consider haplogroups as standard labeling of DNA sequence(s) that researchers determined are of interest. This is to allow multiple companies, using different techniques, a common language to discuss their discoveries. On this Forum, we are interested in ancestry and geographical locations. Their haplogroups are more important (to the companies) for medical and pharmaceutical research. They won’t make any money from family historians. See: China’s $9 billion effort to beat the U.S. in genetic testing Since you use 23&Me, go to TOOLS> DNA RELATIVES and choose someone who has already consented to share their DNA ancestry profile. At the bottom of the page you will see where there is shared haplogroups. Paternal is the Y Chromosome and Maternal are either the X Chromosome or mitochondrial DNA. Screen shot of my two son's 23&Me comparison ...So this DZ person, is the grand kid of your mothers cousin on her mothers side? Did I understand that right? ...sorry, I had switched language to Chinese simplified when I screen-printed and the relationship was obscured. Added English words to the picture below: ... I have been looking at the family finder and it seems as though most of the matches that come up have under .4% shared dna... That has been my experience also. The percentage matched has usually been less than 1%. When I get a match over 1%, I redouble my effort to contact the profile owner. I have my tree on GENI only to find out shortly after the tree to pop up in google search result. Fortunately, as far as I know, most of my family is okay with it... Here is a privacy trick for these public trees. Change the names of living people to Chinese characters. You will still own the profile and if someone wants to contact you, they can private message you. Then your deceased relatives can still match to other people searches.
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Post by ginagaladriel on Aug 21, 2017 11:05:11 GMT -5
Jeremy, As I understand and Doug pointed out, for now if you share the same haplogroup with another user, it means that you to are from at least from the same tribe, and it goes up to the very first female or male of your lineage (father-father-father-father-son or mother-mother-mother-mother-daughter/son). This is my maternal haplogroup: you can read the stories up to the first letter of your haplogroup (If I google search my haplogroup:L2a1c often shares mutation 16189 with L2a1b, but has its own markers at 3010 and 6663. 16192 is also common in L2a1b and L2a1c; it appears in Southeastern Africa as well as East Africa. L2a1c1 has a North African origin. It is defined by markers 198, 930, 3308, 8604, 16086. It is observed among Tunisia Sephardic, Ashkenazi, Hebrews, and Yemenis] Gina, your maternal haplogroup is L2a1c1. L - 180,000 Years Ago: If every person living today could trace his or her maternal line back over thousands of generations, all of our lines would meet at a single woman who lived in eastern Africa between 150,000 and 200,000 years ago. Though she was one of perhaps thousands of women alive at the time, only the diverse branches of her haplogroup have survived to today. The story of your maternal line begins with her. L2 - 88,000 Years Ago: Your branch of L is haplogroup L2, which arose from a woman who lived in Africa almost 90,000 years ago. More recently — in fact, only 4,000 years ago — her descendants were a part of the major Bantu migrations which carried them from central Africa to the east and south and made L2 the most common haplogroup among Africans. L2a1 - 24,000 Years Ago: Your maternal line stems from a branch of haplogroup L2 called L2a1. L2a1 is a widespread branch that arose approximately 24,000 years ago. At the peak of the Last Ice Age 20,000 years ago, the Sahara Desert became entirely uninhabitable and began expanding to the south. People in central Africa bearing L2a1 began journeying in two directions: east toward the cooler climate of the eastern highlands, and west towards the Atlantic coast. Then, beginning about 4,000 years ago, two sub-branches of L2a1 — L2a1a and L2a1b — were swept up with the Bantu-speaking people of West Africa. These people, who had been practicing farming for a thousand years or more, began to expand their territory and gradually introduced both their language and their way of life to their eastern and southern neighbors. Today, both L2a1a and L2a1b are well-represented in Southeast Africa. L2a1 is also quite common among the descendants of Africans in North and South America. Its high frequency is probably due to the concentration of L2a1 in West Africa, which was the main supply region for the Atlantic slave trade. L2a1c1 - 7,000 Years Ago: Your maternal haplogroup, L2a1c1, traces back to a woman who lived approximately 7,000 years ago. That's nearly 280 generations ago! What happened between then and now? As researchers and citizen scientists discover more about your haplogroup, new details may be added to the story of your maternal line. L2a1c1 - Today: L2a1c1 is relatively uncommon among 23andMe customers. Today, you share your haplogroup with all the maternal-line descendants of the common ancestor of L2a1c1, including other 23andMe customers. The highest relative I've found on 23&Me is a Second to Third Cousin (1.22% shared, 6 segments) though my father's sister did her DNA through this company, she is not sharing her results so she is not being displayed. What I did was download my raw DNA and uploaded it to MyHeritage. there I got a Shared DNA 2.0% (141.7 cM) Shared segments 7 Largest segment 30.0 cM (but he is my first cousin) All my trees, in MyHeritage and Ancestry are set to private and I set the privacy really high (no one should be able to copy my photos, and if you are not a member you can't see the information by visiting the tree themselves) if you get a match with another tree, the other person receives a very basic info (not the photo) of my deceased relative and they need to request for membership, also I've set that only managers can change information, but allowed comments. Maybe Geni has something like that??
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Post by ginagaladriel on Aug 21, 2017 11:25:39 GMT -5
Jeremy, Found this in Wikipedia (I am sure if you make a google search you can find a better website / more reliable, the link to the Wikipedia article is in the Haplogroup Q-M120 underlined below) Haplogroup Q-M120, also known as Q1a1a1, is a Y-DNA haplogroup. It is the only primary branch of haplogroup Q1a1a (F746/NWT01). The lineage is most common amongst modern populations in north-east Eurasia. The AmericasOne of the 1K Genomes samples, HG01944, from Peruvians in Lima, Peru belongs to Q-M120. Q-M120 is the other branch under Q-F746. It is best known as an East Asian branch of Q. This is intriguing, if it is not post colonial admixture, it will mark a fourth or fifth Q lineage in the Americas. AsiaQ-M120 is present in Eastern Asia and may trace its origin to East Asia.[1][2] It has been found at low frequency among Han Chinese,[1][2] Dungans,[3] Japanese,[4] Koreans,[3] Mongols,[5] Uygurs,[6] and Tibetans.[2][7] Although it was reported in the Hazaras.[8]
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Post by Doug 周 on Aug 21, 2017 20:55:59 GMT -5
... How can I use my haplogroups to ascertain more information about my lineage and tracing back?... Jeremy, Pardon my not being more explicit. The haplogroup labels for biomarkers are associated with kinship for family historians. You may have heard of biomarkers such as Hgb A1c and cholesterol levels and profiles commonly bantered around during parties and get togethers? There are groups and forums for those who have a certain haplogroups. Genetic family history is a relatively new field and the haplogroups provide a distinct handle for family historians. Think of what happened in San Francisco 150 years ago with our elders. When they got off the steamships, a greeter would call out in the native dialect. People used language differences as a marker to gather groups of kinfolk from Zhongshan (LungDu 隆都话), Taishan (Sze Yup 四邑话), or Panyu/Canton FaYuen 花園(Sam Yup 廣東話). The basis of the Tong wars in California was clan based. You can search out the kinship haplogroups yourself or enroll your DNA into websites like GEDMATCH and WeGene. With 23&Me, use TOOLS>BROWSE RAW DATA>DOWNLOAD Tl;dr haplogroups are identifiers of kinship and help to gather people of similar origins.
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Post by jeremychin on Aug 23, 2017 0:29:47 GMT -5
Doug/Gina,
Thanks for all the information on this. I will definitely be looking more into my haplogroup and see if there any forums for mine that I can connect to. Thanks again for sharing your expertise!
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