Guangdong Shunde Chen's genealogy

[gggrandfather0085]

Hi all,

I have had a thorough study on my genealogy table which is based on the Genealogy Table of Chen's Clan in Shunde, Guangdong. Because of an adaption of my GGGG grandfather who was born around the end of Ming and the beginning of Qing dynasty, any stories before then seem to be uncertain whether or not they are truly relevant to my family line. His adaption was from his great great grandfather with the same surname Chen but all the details as of how he was related are completely missing.
So I wonder if my DNA test result can help to verify this point. I know my Y DNA haplogroup and subclade. If I can meet the distant cousins who are from the same family tree and before this adaption, we can double check our DNA result. Is there any DNA test database in China that are comparable to the database of Family Tree DNA or Gedmatch such that I can contact the potential match of distant cousins? 

Thank you for help in advance.
YC Chen

[twnxn]

That is great. I have an ancestry tablet that goes back 8 generations in Taiwan. But, was able to have someone review the ancestry tablet from my ancestral village from the Ancestral Hall in Zhangzhou, Fujian, China. It listed the progenitor my of specific clan in my ancestral village and several of his descendants. He lived in the Yuan Dynasty.

As for DNA tests in China, the ones I can think of are 23mofang (no, this is not 23andMe and not affiliated with them), WeGene, GeseDNA.  There might be others.

What is your YDNA?

[gggrandfather0085]

Hi buddy,
Yeah, my family's progenitor can be traced back to 1270s, i.e.around the Yuan Dynasty, who resided in the current location of the ancestral village, according to the written record on the Ancestral Hall. However, the adaption of my GGGG grandfather around mid-late 17th century seems unclear without necessary details. The written record was his adopted father, instead of his born father, while it states that his great great grandfather was with the same patriarchal line as his adopted father. The names of his father, grandfather and so on are missing.
I tested with FTDNA and Wegene. Wegene does not have cousin matching database. GeseDNA is pretty new and it is special because of its analysis on one's personalities. Does 23mofang have cousin matching database?
My Y DNA is O2a2b1a1a6b1. I only have a dozen potential matches on Gedmatch and FTDNA but none of them have the same YDNA.

[twnxn]

I am also a Chen, but I guess we do not have the same direct paternal ancestor. My YDNA is O2a2a1a1a (which its maker is O-M159 which is most frequent in Fujian, Guangdong, and Jiangxi Provinces and Taiwan). My paternal ancestor moved from Zhangzhou, Fujian to Taiwan during the middle of the Qing Dynasty. I even have an ancestor painting of my progenitor in Taiwan who was apparently a Provincial Imperial Military Scholar Official during the Qing Dynasty. While the progenitor of my clan in my ancestral village in Zhangzhou, Fujian (close to the Jiulong River) supposedly moved there during the Yuan Dynasty. Apparently, many in that village we're well-versed in the marital arts. They moved to another part of Zhangzhou, Fujian away from the Jiulong River to walled village to escape raids from the Wokou (Japanese pirates). The walled village was a market town. Then, my clan moved to Taiwan.

I also saw your other thread about the Chen Clan. Supposedly my family is part of a sub-branch of the Yingchuan Hall of the Chen Clan. This is per my Ancestry Tablet.

The progenitor of my clan during the Yuan Dyansty was named 陳維生/維新 (Chen Weisheng) and the progenitor of my clan in Taiwan was named 陳季添 (Chen Jitian)

I have not used 23mofang yet. I can ask some people and ask some people in China if there are any other genetic services in China with reliable cousin matches. I often chat genetics with a couple of groups on QQ which many people in China use.

[gggrandfather0085]

Thank you for your information. There are many branches of Chen Clan. Ying Chuan Hall is supposed to be descendants of Chen Shi 陳寔 in the 2nd century theoretically. According to the ancestry tablet, Chen Xian 陳顯, Minister of Finance of the Song Dynasty, moved to Nanhai in 1122, because of the occupation of Jin Empire over the capital region. Chen Xianxi 陳僊谿, the progenitor of our branch, moved to Shaojiao 沙滘 of Shunde, Guangdong circa the 1270s where the current village hall is located.
According to various sources of research, because of the imperial decree of the Ming Dynasty, the demographic segmentation of the local populations was subjected substantial change in the 15th century. Many Tanka 蜑家 and Yaomin 傜民 were willing to be registered for taxation and military recruitment, in order that they were entitled to own the newly reclaimed arable land, and therefore adapted to Han names. This was proven by the population figures of the official household registration. Therefore, there are many sources of new populations that resulted in diversified Y haplogroups and subclades, even under the same Ying Chuan hall.
Particularly to my family tree, the adaption would be one reason why my YDNA is different. I wonder if the newest DNA testing technology can help in verifying the family tree. I'm pretty confident that the last 300-year record on the ancestry tablet is accurate. If I have a chance to compare the YDNA to the persons from the same macro branch whose ancestors diverged from our branch before that adaption, I can verify those generations before the 1690s, and therefore validate the records and earlier generations. However, I don't expect those records before the Ming Dynasty would be relevant to my family tree in any case. It is just a question how long the ancestry record is trustworthy, 300, 400 or 600 years.

[twnxn]

Hello- I responded to your other thread also regarding the Chen surname.

I have always wondered about my YDNA which is O-M159, as I stated in the other thread, it is not a common one and if it appears, it mostly appears in Southeastern China-Fujian, Guangdong, Jiangxi and also in Taiwan. It does not appear in the Central Plains of China like Henan. As I wrote many of the Yingchuan Hall Chen Clan in Zhangzhou, Fujian claim to be descendant of Chen Yuanguang. I do not believe that is true otherwise all would have the same YDNA and in my case, then O-M159 would appear alot more frequently since Chen is a common surname there. But, per 23mofang, the most numerous surname with O-M159 is Huang per their sample.

My Ancestry Tablet only lists my ancestors in Taiwan and the first one to move to Taiwan from Fujian (8 generations). But, I had a genealogist from My China Roots (mychinaroots.com) go to my ancestral village and he found the ancestry tablet from my Chen Ancestral Hall from the ancestral village and found the progenitor and the names of 8 of his descendants. There is a gap between the 1st name in my ancestry tablet and that from the ancestral hall. The estimate the gap to between 120-150 years gap. But, I do believe that I am linked to that progenitor. The genealogist tried to link me to Chen Yuanguang who lived between 657 AD and 711 AD, but I am not confident that is accurate- as there are a few possible genealogies he used with different names. As I stated I don't believe many are actually direct descendants. He may also have been a Xianbei which are Mongol people with YDNA C. I heard Chen Yuanguang ancestors had the Xianbei last name of Houmanchen and they Sinitized to Chen later on. I can provide links later on where some claim that.

I do believe many people with the Chen surname adopted it. I was chatting with people on a Fujian QQ Chat Group and a YDNA O-P201; O-M188; O-M159 chat group a few of them claim Xiang Xinghai or Sinn Sing Hoi had YDNA O-M159. He was from Guangdong. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinn_Sing_Hoi

A couple of others believe some Tanka people in Guangdong may be YDNA O-M159, but then some question of some of the She Minority group in Fujian and there are some in Fujian are of YDNA O-M159. Not sure about that as no study has been done on that.
 
Here is an interesting site talking about the genetic origins of the people in Guangdong. It is not a scholarly article, but the author does cite sources. It is all in Chinese, but if you do not read Chinese, you can view it using Google Chrome as a browser and set it to translate to English: geod.51.net/g98/20100806.htm

[gggrandfather0085]

I also believe that many Chens adapted to this surname at different stages in history. The populations of Chen Clan underwent geometric growth in the last several hundred years when the southeast provinces became Sinicized. Unless the Chens have a stronger capability of reproduction, it is impossible that the growth rate of Chens outperformed other clans by a huge margin.
May I ask how do you confirm your link to the progenitor given the gap of some 4-5 generations?
Xianbei people had many different haplogroup and subclades including C, N, O etc.
The surname Sin is a Cantonese one. I have not met a Sin who has a root outside Guangdong.
I also believe that there were a lot of intermarriages between She, Tanka, Chaozhou, Yao, Miao etc.
Are there any WeChat chat groups about genealogy and DNA?

[twnxn]

As to how I know if my genealogy is tied to Chen Weisheng. Actually, I can’t say 100%. Genealogy of any sort going take far is based on circumstantial evidence. The only other way to know if I had all who claim to be direct descendants of him to take a DNA test. But, here is an excerpt from my Genealogy report from My China Roots.
“We found three stone tablets in the Chen Clan Temple, which carried information about the history of
the temple (The Chen family temple was built during the reign of Qing Emperor Qianlong, 1735-­1796,
and rebuilt during the reign of Qing Emperor Jiaqing, 1796-­1820). The tablets also showed the name
of the first Chen ancestor in Xiaqiao Village: Chen Weisheng / 陈维生, also known as Chen
Weixin / 维新 and Cheng Xuan / 成轩; his wife was named Huang Gongwan / 黄恭婉. Chen
Weisheng came from Linnei, Xihu / 西湖林内 in downtown Zhangzhou (note that this is a different
Linnei from the one in Qiaotou), and moved to Xiaqiao around the end of the Yuan Dynasty, mid-­14th
century.
-­ Your Chen Clan is a sub-­clan of the Yingchuan Chen Clan….
After Chen Weixin settled in Xiaqiao, his descendants spread out to other places in Fujian, Taiwan,
and Guangdong;; your ancestors moved to Linnei in Qiaotou village.
-­ There used to be a stone flagpole in front of the temple to commemorate a Chen clan member who
was a wujuren. A wujurenwas a person who passed the provincial level Military Imperial
Examinations, typically a martial arts expert. In fact, Xiaqiao used to be known as a martial arts village,
and many villagers practised kung fu. The pedestal of the flagpole was more than 1m long and about
1m wide. Xiaqiao's history counts a total of two wujuren. Chen Laojiang and elderly Xiaqiao villagers
only knew the name of one of these two, which was Chen Denghua. As we know your ancestor Chen
Jitian was a wujuren, he must have been the other of the two. Also, the elderly Xiaqiao villagers were
sure that the flagpole was not built for Chen Denghua (who passed the exams 130 years ago), and
thus it will have been the case that the Xiaqiao flagpole was built in honor of your ancestor Chen
Jitian. Sadly, the flagpole was destroyed in 1958, during a very rough time in Chinese history, and the
rock of the pedestal was used to build a toilet.
-­ We went to Xiaqiao's graveyard;; all tombstones carried the characters for Xiaqiao (霞桥).
Unfortunately, there were no tombstones of relevance to your direct lineage: the older graves did not
have tombstones (anymore), and those with tombstones were all from the past 100 years.
-­ The Xiaqiao villagers stressed that the local government had decided to demolish your
Xiaqiao Chen Clan family temple in 2016. At the time of our visit, Xiaqiao villagers were discussing
the option of re-­building the family temple in a different place.”
The basis is my Chen Clan comes from a village called Xiaqiao霞桥in Zhangzhou, Fujian. That village name is engraved in my grandfather, great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather’s tombstones. While as I stated before my ancestry tablet lists Chen Jitian as the progenitor of my clan in Taiwan. He is from 7 generations earlier. I’m the 8th generation. He was a wujuren. 武舉人. As stated, my uncle has an ancestor painting of him wearing the full Qing Dynasty robe, etc. Per the genealogy report and talking to the villagers and village historian, there were only 2 Wujuren from Xiaqiao. One was identified Chen Denghua whom was not my 5x great grandfather (and he lived 130 years ago which does not fit the timeframe when the Family Temple was reconstructed. Thus, they believe the other one was my 5x great-grandfather Chen Jitian as mentioned in the report a flagpole was made in his honor at the Xiaqiao Chen Clan Family Temple as it fits the timeframe when he lived. As the report as, the Chen Clan Family Temple in Xiaqiao was rebuilt again rebuilt during the reign of Qing Emperor Jiaqing, 1796-­1820)-which fits the timeframe when Chen Jitian lived.
My ancestry tablet also mentioned 2 other individuals before Chen Jitian. They mention Chen Chaogang陳朝綱 and Chen Chaoke/Tingyang 陳兆科/廷楊 as the “Tangzu” 唐祖 which means Chinese ancestor (the ones who live in China). So, in reality after Chen Weisheng and his 6 descendants listed in that ancestry tablet- I will suspect my Tangzu are there and some of his descendants including Chen Jitian. Of course.

Of course, you can see some of my posts on another thread back in 2015- I was posting progress reports when My China Roots were making giving them to me before producing the final report.

Here is one I posted on December 27, 2015 (see: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/thread/752/common-ancestor-surname-chen?page=24&scrollTo=18731):

“I shared some of my information in my immediate post to this one with Philip Tan and he looked up Chen Weixin (陳維新)- one of my ancestors in Fujian and progenitor of the Xiaqiao Chen Clan in Fujian per the Xiaqiao Chen Clan Director and did not find him in the descendant lines of Chen Zheng 陳政 and of Chen Yuanguang 陳元光. Instead, he found Chen Weixin (陳維新)to be 27th generation descendant of Chen Wen Zan (陳文贊). Chen Wen Zan (陳文贊) does have common ancestors with Chen Zheng 陳政 and of Chen Yuanguang 陳元光 and hence just under sub-branch of the Yingchuan Chen Branch.

See: www.nanchens.com/csyy/csyy03/csyy03005.htm. The first generation here is Chen Wen Zan (陳文贊). While here in you just hit Ctrl-F and type 維新 to find that Chen Weixin (陳維新) is the 27th generation from Chen Wen Zan (陳文贊).

If you go to www.nanchens.com/csyy/csyy1101.htm you can see how Chen Yuanguang (陳元光), Chen Yong (陳邕) and Chen Wen Zan (陳文贊) are related.


As I stated in my prior post, Chen Weixin (陳維新) of Xiaqiao, Zhangzhou, Fujian had descendants who later on moved to Lin Nei sub-village, Qiaozaitou Village, Zhangzhou, Fujian (where my ancestors moved to before moving onto Taiwan; as well as to Guangdong and to Taiwan.

But, again just waiting to see if we can find our Zupu which a distant relative of the Xiaqiao Chen Clan in Indonesia may have a copy.

Read more: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/thread/752/common-ancestor-surname-chen?page=24&scrollTo=18731#ixzz54HGcAU5r”

Philip Tan has been helpful and My China Roots even met up with Philip Tan in Malaysia. He found this regarding Chen Chaogang- so who knows. See: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/thread/752/common-ancestor-surname-chen?page=21

As for intermarriages with the Tanka, She, Miao, etc. no doubt about it I believe there were lots going on in Fujian and Guangdong. My autosomal DNA seems to agree with that- it shows me a mixture of "Northern Han" and "Southern Han" (which I believe includes Baiyue).

[gggrandfather0085]

Thanks for your detailed input. Theoretically, if you can reach out to the proven descendants of Chen Weixin and Chen Yuanguang, you can validate the genealogy by comparing your Y-DNA. I think our cases are not uncommon as the genealogy tablets go through hundred years of family history, there have to be something unclear or missing. I hope more people would share their stories especially of those who have experiences using DNA test to validate the written genealogy information. Particularly any platforms where we can meet our distant cousins and compare DNA test results can definitely be very helpful. 

[twnxn]

Wouldn't that be great if there is a company that did both DNA testing and genealogical research in East Asia. That would certainly help.

[gggrandfather0085]

Yes, agree. I hope there will be some Chinese DNA companies who offer distant cousin matching and database for close cousins in the near future.
BTW, do you know any WeChat/QQ discussion groups which serve as platforms connecting cousins of the same genealogical line?