My grandfather’s parentage

[kuey]

Hi,

I need help to trace my grand father’s parents? Would appreciate if someone could help me. I just got to know that my grandfather was adopted! My great grandfather, 郭细弟 has 2 wives, 陈白糖 and 郑淑喜 in china and both of them did not have any children. He travelled to Siam to set up rice milling factory. Understand that he has many wives in Siam and he passed on in Siam. His 2nd wife, 郑淑喜 adopted my grandfather, 郭克成 from her sister-in-law. I do not have the name of her sister- in -law and I am not sure of my grandfather original name.
They were staying in 郭令番隔溪门祠堂后. My grandmother name is 蔡俞琴. I believe my grandfather was born in1904 and my grandmother is 1909. My grandfather is a seaman and he brought the whole family ( my great grandmother, grandmother and my father, 郭绍添) to Singapore in 1936.
P/S: The year stated maybe +-2.

Thank you!

Regards,
Elena

[Doug 周]

We probably cannot help you. The emphasis of this Forum is the diaspora to Western countries. There happens to be a strong following of the Indonesian migration. We have very little experience with Thailand genealogical trends. I doubt DNA will help based on the small sample size of Thai genetic material and the failure of late 20th century USA-Chinese adoptees in their hope of a DNA match.

I would recommend you archive the DNA sample of the elder's closest relative to your grandfather. Emphasize, if appropriately based on Mendelian heritage, the yDNA and/or mDNA. Don’t expect any matches soon. You will need to wait until the population sample size of your target great grandparents increases.

Finally, consider finding a group who have experience with Thai genealogy techniques to learn about sources and styles of naming spouses and offsprings.

[kuey]

Hi Doug,

Thanks for your prompt reply. Yes, I agree with you that it is very difficult to trace on my great-grandfather’s descenders with the little information that I could provide. I am just trying my luck.
The most important thing that I would like to know is that if it is possible to trace my grandfather’s parents and siblings in China. My grandfather is adopted that is we are actually not DNA related to my great-grandfather. My grandfather is adopted by my great-grandmother (of chinese name 郑淑喜 ) from her sister-in-law who we did not have any information and would like to trace. After adoption my grandfather’s Chinese name was 郭克成. He was borned around 1904. They could be staying in Southern China, Chaozhou with this address: 郭令番隔溪门祠堂后. They were of the dialect group of Teochew. My grandfather was married to 蔡俞琴. He was a seaman who travelled to Singapore often. In 1936, he migrated to Singapore with my great-grandmother, my grandmother and my father who was born in 1933 (of Chinese name 郭绍添). Thereafter, they stayed in Singapore till now.
Would it be possible to trace my grandfather’s parentage base on all these info? As I think my last name should be something else instead of Quek ‘郭’.

Thanks.

Regards,
Elena.

[Doug 周]

Elena,

The additional information is helpful. Finding your GF’s lineage depends on many factors. Alas, everything in genealogy depends on other factors .

Did the your GGF’s zupu(族谱) survive intact from the Cultural revolution? How detailed and/or how thorough was the compiler of GGF’s zupu. Is your GF(adoptee) truly from your GGF’s village and your surname is truly Quek 郭?

Maybe some of the Chinese literate map specialist can determine if the phrase for the Chaozhou address (郭令番隔溪门祠堂后) denotes GGF’s ancestral village (lachinatown ?). You might look at GGF’s and GF’s tombstones for more information.

It is VERY common for adoptees to be from the same ancestral village. I was shocked to learn my grand uncle, who is very important in my youth, was adopted as confirmed when studying my zupu. That information was not forthcoming from family interviews. The zupu biography section(Jiazhuan 家傳) of his adopting family indicated his biological father. I was then able to trace his true lineage. Not every zupu is as detailed as my father’s.

I still would recommend archiving a yDNA sample from your father or brother. I would compare that to the male cousins (male biological offspring of GGF). If your GF had true sisters (from GGM’s sister-in-law), then archiving the mDNA of the female lineage will help fix your biologic GGM for future studies.

Detailed zupus will allow you to trace the female side (with difficulty).

I hope I encouraged you.

IMHO

[kuey]

Hi Doug,

Thanks for your encouragement. I am trying to dig more information out from my parents but everything hits wall! I am not very optimistic about my trace. My ggf, ggm and gf’s tomestone was being demolished a few years back and none of us has taken any picture of it!
I think the only hope is the address and the names that I had. Do you think there was record of residents’ namelist, relatives with the village government around the 1900 period?
As you mentioned about the dna, what is the procedure like about getting the dna?

Thanks & Regards,
Elena

[Doug 周]

Oct 24, 2018 2:40:36 GMT -5 kuey said:

...Do you think there was record of residents’ namelist, relatives with the village government around the 1900 period?...

The zupu was the official names list for local governments at that time. To have your name stricken off the zupu because of disciplinary actions has consequences to the identity of an individual. This is the reason why ancestral villages and zupus were destroyed; Mao was losing control of the country, and destroyed the local governance infrastructure to maintain his power. 

Oct 24, 2018 2:40:36 GMT -5 kuey said:

...As you mentioned about the dna, what is the procedure like about getting the dna?

I have only used 23&Me. It is merely a swab of the inner cheek and mailing back to the company. I however cannot display the yDNA and mDNA of my relatives, so I wonder if those results are hidden from my view. It should be a simple procedure for you to use other companies.

[kuey]

Hi Doug,

I am not clear on the Zulu thingy. I thought it was individual and every family has a copy. Happy to hear that it was kept by the village’s government! In that case where would I be able to request a copy? If I could get a copy of it, I could be able to trace from there where my grandfather was adopted from!
For my case, my ancestors were teochew with surname of Quek, 郭. Please advise. Thanks.

Regards,
Elena

[Henry]

Elena,

I suggest you contact the:

Foreign and Overseas Chinese Affairs Office of Xiamen Municipal Government

Tel: [phone]

Fax: [phone]

Post Code: 361004

Add: 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 7th floor, Tuanjie Building, No16, Bailuzhou Road, Xiamen

They could probably find or provide you with the contact information for a 郭 / Guo clan association in Xiamen - which may have a zupu that would possibly have your great grandfather's name [ 郭细弟 ]and the lineage of his descendants, sometimes they also note if there was an adoption of a person.

Henry

[Doug 周]

Oct 26, 2018 20:48:59 GMT -5 kuey said:

...I am not clear on the Zulu thingy. I thought it was individual and every family has a copy. Happy to hear that it was kept by the village’s government! In that case where would I be able to request a copy? If I could get a copy of it, I could be able to trace from there where my grandfather was adopted from!

The zupu 族谱 is the clan or village book. The many volumes contain everyone and their heritage for the clan village. It is referred to by the governing elders to adjudicate disputes.

Most families will transcribe, and memorize, their jiapu 家譜. Usually the jiapu contains very few cousins, aunts, and uncles. The emphasis is depth as opposed to breadth of family lineages. It can be hand written, and along with the generational poem, memorized and recited. Knowing one’s generational number is important, and that is counted usually from the progenitor or founder of the village. The jiapu is the family transcription of pertinent lineages of the zupu.

If I have read your post correctly, I assumed you do not know your ancestral village. There are so many villages that unless you have a very unique surname, it will be difficult to trace a zupu with an unknown village. That is assuming the zupu survived the Cultural Revolution..

Please follow Henry’s advice and see if the Overseas Affairs office can help you. Henry leads tours to China and deals with these agencies. Please share your experience with the interactions. Unfortunately, most overseas heritage seekers writing on this Forum have not been successful in the response to their inquiries with the agencies.