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Post by douglaslam on Nov 14, 2018 11:56:02 GMT -5
This Forum is blessed with members like Philip who can pull something out of thin air and work miracles in helping member like Rico. It is help that money cannot buy. The depth and breadth of Philip's knowledge is astounding.
I am on my penultimate day of my current trip in China. The highlight of the village wedding is just too big a job to upload. My goodness, it was exhilarating, uplifting and there were tender and touching moments which almost moved me to tears, my voice quivered . I cannot upload the image of the moment that moved me the most. Perhaps I can do better after my returning home tomorrow.
Doug周, my note book mysteriously reappeared. I can now try to make sense of what I had photographed. Did you establish Wechat contact with LC?
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Post by Doug 周 on Nov 14, 2018 13:34:12 GMT -5
Yes, rico and chakrajuices were uncharacteristically fortunate to have struck genealogical gold by finding their heritage worked out and available online, without needing additional fieldwork. The Chinese characters extracted from tombstones are still sine qua non for family lineage. ...Doug周, my note book mysteriously reappeared. I can now try to make sense of what I had photographed. Did you establish Wechat contact with LC? That is wonderful that your notes reappeared. I had replied via email but the Great Firewall blocked your access. I look forward to your photos and posting. I was able to have had LC befriend me via WeChat, but I have been unsuccessful in getting him to respond to my small talk.
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rico
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Post by rico on Nov 16, 2018 9:19:23 GMT -5
Good day Sir Philip, Base on your interpretation of our family tree it shows that 金魚,our grandfather, and 炎芽,his brother, are the only offspring of our great grandfather? But according to our Aunt, one of the daughters of 炎芽, is that they are 3 siblings wherein the third sibling died here in the Philippines. It's also from my Aunts family came that issue(secret) that my Dad is adopted. I can still vividly recall my Dads fellow Chinese calls him Chuan. Based on the family tree you've sent, does it means my Dad is not really adopted? And the eldest son of 炎芽 was adopted by my grandparents? Also I recall then that my Dad have a sister(according to our Aunt, she was the real offspring) who also died in China,does her name appears in the registry?
If it indeed that my Dads name is in the ancestral records, then it would be the last entry. Is it possible to continue it by adding 8 names of his sons and daughters? What will be the procedures.
How about with 炎芽, are the names of his sons and daughters already registered? They're 7 all in all.
Regarding the picture of 5 men, I don't have any idea whether they're part of our ancestors. The only concern why I post it is because of the Chinese calligraphy at the back.
Again, my deepest gratitude for all the effort you and your friends are doing in finding my roots. With the blessing from up above, hope we can travel there and meet our relatives.
Rico
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rico
Member
Posts: 11
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Post by rico on Nov 16, 2018 9:28:58 GMT -5
Also, my thanks to Doug, one of the moderators of proboards for giving the links regarding Chinese translation. Now am trying to learn and practice cut and paste for the translations. More power Sir Doug and Sir Philip.
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Post by Doug 周 on Nov 17, 2018 11:19:27 GMT -5
...according to our Aunt, one of the daughters of 炎芽, is that they are 3 siblings... I count three siblings. The writing is as usual left to right. Your grandfather is the eldest. The Chinese do not have the stigma of adoption that westerners have. The usual reason for adoption is to insure that someone will perform Ching Ming 清明. The fact the eldest was adopted makes sense before the younger biologic offspring were born. However, many adoptees were truly related and were adopted from 1st and 2nd cousins. Classical Chinese genealogy is patrilineal. The woman becomes part of the husbands family. Usually she is not included in her surname's regristry. Usually you will need to make a visit or commission someone to make a visit to the ancestral village or the keeper of the zupu. It depends when the zupu was updated. You will have to inquire in person unless you can contact the keeper online. Without having any Guanxi 关系, an in-person visit is necessary. A donation will be expected. philiptancl has given you all the information to do that. IMHO
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Post by philiptancl on Nov 18, 2018 1:23:42 GMT -5
Hi Rico,
I can now say with absolute confidence that the chart provided is that for your grandfather. My friend confirmed with me last night, via telephone conversation, that the birth date of 李金魚 in your Lee family records coincided with what is written on the gravestone of your grandfather you had posted. The searcher in Jinmen and your relative(s) in Jinmen requested for the following:
1. Your family tree chart of those giving the all names. I told them that you and your relatives are not able to speak in Chinese, let alone write in Chinese. So provide the names in family tree chart in way you all have them. For those who had passed away and please do provide photos of their gravestones so that a proper family chart could be c0nsstructed. Hopefully they contain Chinese characters as well. I am sending you my contact through a personal message in this Forum so that you can forward them to me and a faster channel of communication. 2. The chart that was posted earlier showed that李金魚 and 李炎芽 migrated to Manila, Philippines. Your relatives there want to know where about you all are located now in Philippines?
As pointed out by Doug 周, your great grandfather 李清雅 has three sons. Beside 金魚 and炎芽 the third son is 天卯.
From the chart, 炎芽 is shown to have five sons (I take them to be sons as there was no indication with the character “女”in bracket below each of the names. The five sons are 朝基, 新民, 炳忠, 山, and扶西. If your grandfather has any daughters, they might be indicated in the profile details for your grandfather金魚. In charts for earlier generations, the daughters are normally not shown. In some ancestral records, daughters may not even be shown even in the father details.
朝川 is quoted as the son of your grandfather 金魚 in the chart. In your case, the chart itself does not provide indication of adoption. We may need to look at the profile details for your grandfather and that of your father that are within the ancestral records. Adoptions at our ancestral places in China during the older days were usually done within the same surname clan; i.e. from children of your brothers, cousins or more distant cousins. Adoption would be through the same generation. Ancestral records would normally indicate who the biological father was and maybe what form was the adoption. Sometime adoption could be done outside of the surname clan and this could be indicated differently in the ancestral record. 新民 is shown as the second son of your grandfather on his grave as well as your grandmother. In the chart 新民 is shown as the second son of炎芽.
I would like to comment that in your case, there appeared to be some “spiritual hands” involved. I can quote quite many coincidences that had happened which together have brought your case coming this far so quickly. I can quote you all the coincidences if you are interested.
Philip Tan
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Post by Doug 周 on Nov 18, 2018 10:09:15 GMT -5
... I would like to comment that in your case, there appeared to be some “spiritual hands” involved. I can quote quite many coincidences that had happened which together have brought your case coming this far so quickly. I can quote you all the coincidences if you are interested.Philip, I suspect rico is communicating with you privately now. If the spirits allow and confidentiality is not violated, can you share the coincidences you’ve experienced? This case is unusual in the trajectory of the outcome.
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Post by philiptancl on Nov 20, 2018 1:05:46 GMT -5
Philip, I suspect rico is communicating with you privately now. If the spirits allow and confidentiality is not violated, can you share the coincidences you’ve experienced? This case is unusual in the trajectory of the outcome. Doug 周, Rico has not been communicating with me privately till now. Rico first posting on Oct 30, 2018, asking for assistance in finding his ancestry, was similar to so many from Philippines with Chinese ancestry; saying their ancestry was from Amoy. Amoy is the name that immigrants from Fujian would normally recall but where the current name ii Xiamen (廈門). Xiamen is a sub-provincial city of Fujian with direct jurisdiction over 6 districts covering an area of some 1,700 square km. When responding to a few of such postings in the past, I elaborated that they would need to be more specific to narrow their ancestral places of origin further beyond just mentioning Amoy or Xiamen. After seeing so many similar requests from Philippines, I had long suspected that Amoy must had been the port that their ancestors had set sail to Philippines while their ancestral places would likely be elsewhere and not even be within any of 6 districts that provincial city of Fujian has direct jurisdiction over. I too had seen you, Doug 周, responded a few times on such similar postings. As there are now so many other members in this Forum able and willing to such queries, I now normally would skip reading such posting (unless some other members, like Doug 周, buzz me on it). This is because there now many cases outside of this Forum approaching me for assistance or other sources asking them to contact me directly. I was in China during the period from October 13 to Oct 25, 2018 on a historical tour on places along the Silk Road. While there I had not check the postings on this Forum for quite a while. In additional I had been busy over few new cases referred to me while I was away and needing my attention along with those I was attending to. When I check on this Forum again just the first quarter of November, Rico case was on the top thread for “Chinese Genealogy” of this Forum. I would have ignored it as another case from Philippines seeking from Amoy; more so when names of ancestors been quoted as “Amah and Angkong”. Fortunately you, Doug 周, had advice him how to upload pictures of his grandparents gravestones that allowed the photos to be posted, easily glanced through and caught my attention to see Rico ancestral origin as provided on his grandparents’ gravestones. The gravestone clearly showed Jinmen (金門) that clearly confirmed my suspicion that those who claimed their Chinese ancestry are from Amoy would invariably not necessary from there. In the case of Rico, even if we can point out his Chinese ancestry is from a place called 古寧頭 in island of 金門, I suspect it would just end there as Rico subsequently had said “we cannot afford to go there and neither of us 8 original offspring know how to speak Chinese”. Now I need to relate the story on Bryan Tan (the intermediary in locating Rico ancestry) and all the coincidences of finding his ancestry in Jinmen (金門). Bryan is a member of the Energy Management Committee of the Federation of Manufacturers Malaysia (FMM). FMM is the most important body that the agencies within the Government would engage with whenever issues relating to energy matters are discussed. I could see that to be so while I was one of the members for the Board of Commissioners of Energy Commission of Malaysia, the regulator for electricity for electricity and gas. In quite many discourses on energy matters between agencies of the Government and FMM, FMM at times tends to off-tangent which I had thought tends not going towards equitable and beneficial conclusions. I have been with electric power industry all my working life, for many years first with the national electricity utility till my optional retirement, then working within the independent power industries as often asked to deal with the national utility itself, agencies of the government and the Energy Commission, and then subsequently roped in to be with the Energy Commission itself. Maybe it might be my tendency of being vociferous in speaking out on issues affecting the industry that one day the late Chairman then of FMM’s Energy Management Committee asking me to join the committee he is heading. While I was agreement to assist there was however a problem; I need to be a member for a manufacturing company who is a member of FMM but I am not. This was solved when one manufacturer assigns me as its advisor so that I can be in as part of the committee. Like Bryan Tan, two of us are members of the committee every year since I joined. We became very friendly and invariably our private conversation invariably turned to our Chinese ancestry, which to him is of no interest. What he knew is that his ancestor is from Jinmen (金門). Though ancestry is of no interest to him, I had been nagging him to find out more even if it is no interest to him by telling him one day his children or his grandchildren might be interested to search for their roots. He needs to leave some clues for them to undertake such a search. This has been going on over some years with me persuading him to seek out his ancestral record all these while. Only last year he went on a holiday tour group that took him to Jinmen (金門) without any intention to seek out his ancestry there. On the last evening while there, he was in conversation with the tour leader of another tour group in the hotel they were staying. When he mentioned his ancestral place the other tour leader immediately told him that he knew the place and knew people there that turned out to be his relative still living in there Jinmen. Immediately he quickly contacted them and his relatives came to meet him on the same night. His relative told him there are still several houses in Jinmen belonging to his ancestor and there are still in under the name of his ancestor. They asked that Bryan father should lay claim to them. He brought his father there in subsequent trips and now he is in regular messaging contact with relatives there. Bryan related these happenings to me usually before the start of our regular meetings at FMM. In one recent encountered Bryan mentioned one of his relative is involved with surname clan associations in Jinmen. It is through these coincidences over the chain of events which, without any of the event mentioned occurring; Rico would not have come thus far.
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Post by Doug 周 on Nov 20, 2018 1:38:49 GMT -5
It's amazing how things just fell into place. It's fortunate for Rico that you assemble the pieces of the puzzle so quickly.
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rico
Member
Posts: 11
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Post by rico on Nov 22, 2018 10:07:38 GMT -5
Sir Doug 周
Sorry for these delayed reply although I've already read your messages yesterday only, was kinda preoccupied with other things. Regarding your answers to my query, point per point, you've answered all my questions and made my confused mind a bit clearer. I count three siblings. The writing is as usual left to right. Your grandfather is the eldest.
So it means that the listing starts with the youngest to the left and ends with the eldest on the right? Regarding the third or youngest sibling, what are those entries below his name? I was told by my Aunt that the third sibling was shot by a Japanese here in the Philippines I don't know if it was during the war. Does he has a family?
Adoption. That's my real issue coz if indeed my Dad is adopted then my ancestry records will be different from what Sir Philip had found? Also, I will be having a different sets of relatives. Aside from the claims of my Aunts and Uncles that my Dad is adopted, I also remember that in my Dads legal papers here in the Philippines, he states his birthplace was Amoy China, which again contradicts my grandparents ancestral place which is Kinmen.
Chinese Genealogy is patrilineal.That was very informative, now I understand why daughters name doesn't appear on family tree.
Updating of Zupu. What's Guanxi 关系? And what's the ideal donation if ever?
Was also told that our ancestral home was named to my grandfather, being the eldest, (Chinese culture??) Now that he passed away who's next in line? My Dad and my eldest brother also passed away. Have one remaining Uncle, son of 炎芽, other 4 passed away.
Rico
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Post by Doug 周 on Nov 22, 2018 11:15:57 GMT -5
... So it means that the listing starts with the youngest to the left and ends with the eldest on the right?... You and I have a different point of view of other culture's documents. If you can accept that the Chinese documents are read from right to left, then the eldest is considered first and the start of the listing of the generation. Make use of philiptancl 's offer and contact the person on the home village to inquire specifically. Consider using Google Translate to write your question in Chinese. Please reread carefully philiptancl explanation you have the tools to ask Google and search this Forum If you want monetary/financial advice about inheritance, some people have discussed that on the Forum. You will need to inquire with others or do your search on the Forum
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rico
Member
Posts: 11
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Post by rico on Nov 23, 2018 9:36:43 GMT -5
Sir Doug, Thanks for all your informative inputs. Just for clarification regarding my question about the next heir to the ancestral home, it's not about monetary or financial advice am concern of, it's only for the heritage. Difference in culture or traditions are my concern that's why am asking for guidance. Rico
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Post by philiptancl on Nov 28, 2018 22:42:01 GMT -5
Sir Doug, Just for clarification regarding my question about the next heir to the ancestral home, it's not about monetary or financial advice am concern of, it's only for the heritage. Difference in culture or traditions are my concern that's why am asking for guidance. Rico Rico, I am beginning to wonder whether you are more interested about the potential inheritance of the ancestral home or about finding your Chinese genealogy and ancestry. If you are referring to the ancestral house of your grandfather or your great grandfather, I had a similar situation where my grandfather built an ancestral house in Yongchun after coming to Malaysia around 1910. The ancestral house is now mainly to be the family ancestral hall where my grandfather’s MALE descendants (including those MALES ADOPTED into the family) and their WIVES could house the ancestral tablets there. It is not for the daughters who are married out as theirs would be house in the husbands’ ancestral hall. Wives who remarried after their husbands died would not be housed there. On each anniversary of person death (whether that for a male descendant or his spouse), his descendants are expected to venerate them by offerings of food, etc. That would follow the customs of the ancestral place one is from. If according to mine, the food offering would consist of eight dishes with at a dish of bird (i.e. chicken), a fish dish, and a meat dish (usually pork). In our custom, duck is forbidden. Chicken would be cut into four when offered to ancestors but kept whole when offered to deities. For ancestors, we use two joss sticks but for deities it would be three. For the descendants who are overseas, they would have the ancestral tablets in their home overseas and they would be observing the death anniversary offering in their respective homes overseas. I was given to understand the annual offering during the date of death would go on till the deceased age had reached 100 years. There will a collective offering to all deceased ancestors at the ancestral hall in China (on a fixed chosen date) for all descendants who want to be present. For some overseas, they may have a common ancestral hall where descendants would gather; e.g. the CHEE Mansion in Malacca where they refer it to their “Rumah Abu” in Peranakan parlance). Ancestral halls can be very old and would need restorations or renovation from time to time. Descendants would be requested to contribute towards the cost. When I first went to my ancestral place in 2007, my grandfather house was almost 100 years. In 2013 when my second cousin told me that the hose need restoration that would cost to more than RMB 400,000. I told him that I am not the only grandson overseas as there are so many male descendants from my grandfather here in Malaysia and elsewhere overseas. While I may be able and willing to bear the cost, I would stand to all sorts of accusations if I did so. I had to inform others of the need for restoration, the cost involved and see if there wish to contribute. Those who kept quiet and did not respond, would be taken to mean that they had been informed and do not wish to contribute. The house was thus subsequently restored, date chosen for the re-consecration ceremony, with ancestral tablets of male deceased and deceased wives from Malaysia made and to be anointed by the Taoist priest that was employed there for the re-consecration ceremony, and lunch banquet arranged for invited guests and near relatives there and those who attend ceremony from Malaysia. All the above would involve expenses. If you are people that the main ancestral hall looks up to there would be request for contributions when certain works need to be done relating to the main ancestral hall. It was not for nothing that I was elected as one of the honorary presidents of the main ancestral hall during the latest election, something I did not anything about until someone sent me a posting on the clan website. For my ancestral place, the date of main ancestral hall is fixed on Winter Solstice (normal December 22 but in some years could be December 21) where it is to pay respect to our very early ancestors. Normally more than 60 from Malaysia would attend for the main ancestral hall. We would have another day around the same time to do the same in our respective sub-branches ancestral halls. Philip Tan
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Post by tyuti1668 on Nov 29, 2018 17:24:01 GMT -5
Anyone interested in downloading this 634 pagee...I can't read it... It's some chorography collection of Guangdong. As Doug周 said b4 recognize the shape & solve puzzle. The keyword in this time is 志 (record) 集 (assembly)
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Post by FayChee on Nov 29, 2018 18:33:24 GMT -5
Oh......thanks Tyuti, I guess it was too good to be true.....
I'll remove it in a little while...
Fay Chee
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