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Post by FayChee on Nov 14, 2018 9:49:50 GMT -5
Chakrajuices, My friend Wing Tak Seto made contact with the Dajin Village Head, and this is what he said: Wing Tak Szeto: "According to the reply from the charge of the Library, who got the information from the village head, 荃佑 is correct. As you may know the old reading practice is from right to left, while the modern reading is from left to right, which makes confusion sometimes. You friend's grandfather is Quan You, having 6 sons." I am thinking that the Chinese wife may have adopted more son's to help out.....anyone have thought's about this possibility? Below are the pages from the Old Szeto Zupu that Jason Wu first identified and from the New Situ Zupu that Wing Tak Szeto identified: So I just noticed that in both Zupus, there are 2 sons that do not have any families, I wonder if they died? I wonder if these are the two sons that were left behind with the first wife?
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Post by Doug 周 on Nov 14, 2018 11:32:29 GMT -5
Amazing all the uncles of Sophie. Nice work, Faychee and Jason. Wonder about the birth hierarchy of Sophie's Mum. One ponders if Quan You (荃佑) bones were repatriated to the ancestral village. Was Quan You a contract worker for New Zealand? I just came from a railroad tour of the Chinese contribution to the American transcontinental railroad construction and they emphasized that the Central Pacific company was scrupulous in insuring the bones were returned to China for repatriation. It was an integral part of the contract. If the bones were not repatriated, Sophie's family is honored with performing Ching Ming (清明)click for the patriarch of a large family. It would be nice if the Seto Zupu had a biographical (Jiazhuan 家傳) section which talks about Quan You. I have only seen those on published zupu's from Zhongshan.
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Post by jasonwu on Nov 14, 2018 11:55:48 GMT -5
Fay Chee,
Thank you for reaching out to Wing Tak!
Sophie shared with me some old photographs from the 1950's that her half-family in China sent to her grandfather in New Zealand. There was writing on the back that allowed us to extract the following information:
司徒佑荃 Seto Yew Shuen = 司徒阿為 Seto Ah Wai
孫女月梨 Granddaughter Nguet Lei
孫男健邦+健偉 Grandsons Ken Bong and Ken Wai
Do you think that Wing Tak could contact the Dajin Village Chief again to see if he recognizes the names of the grandchildren, who are from closer times? These names don't seem to show up in the lineage above...
Cheers,
Jason
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Post by FayChee on Nov 14, 2018 12:29:06 GMT -5
Hi Doug,
Her GF passed away in the early 1970's, so not sure if they were still doing bone repatriations then....
I don't know if he was a contract worker at any time, but at some point he worked in the Gardens in Auckland and had his own Garden I believe....
Chakrajuices can probably tell us more.
Jason Wu, I sent your message to Wing Tak via WeChat, but the time zone in Hong Kong is reverse of mind. Will let you know what he says.
Fay Chee
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Post by Doug 周 on Nov 14, 2018 13:41:47 GMT -5
...Sophie shared with me some old photographs from the 1950's that her half-family in China sent to her grandfather in New Zealand. There was writing on the back that allowed us to extract the following information:... I hope noobs reading this success story realize the importance of archaeologically searching for Chinese characters from their ancestors' artifacts.
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Post by chakrajuices on Nov 14, 2018 17:57:31 GMT -5
Hi Everyone, My GF worked in Henry Seto's Family Gardens Wing Hing & Co in Panmure, Auckland and then he leased land to operate a garden as well, so never owned garden land only leased it and then worked for the Seto family. I'm still reeling and trying to understand the zupu and my GF's lineage... I don't quite understand the process of repatriated bones and trust I will be guided by this forum. I'm also excited by what Doug has said, 'amazing all the Uncles of Sophie'. Also Doug as far as I know from my mum my GF was not a contract worker...but we really do not fully his life in NZ yet. And will post further information once I receive it from my mum's relative Uncle Henry Seto. This is so exciting Thank you everyone!
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Post by FayChee on Nov 14, 2018 18:51:52 GMT -5
Chakrajuices,
Here is an explanation of what the Zupu and Jiapu are....I copied from website, but it is also explained somewhere here on this forum:
"In the history of the Chinese people, there are three important elements that are significant. They are China's history, the local gazette and a clan's genealogy. Amongst these three elements, genealogy has the longest history and is the most influential.
Jia Pu (translated as genealogy record), also known as Zu Pu, is a record of a clan's history and lineage. It documents the origins of the surname, the migration patterns of the clan, the family lineage, the ancestral biography, the story of the locality, etc.
The origin of Jia Pu spans many eras and has been found as early as the Shang Dynasty (1523-1028BC). The family trees of the clans then were written on turtle shells, cow bones and bronze. Prior to the invention of writing, Chinese genealogical information was recorded by tying knots on ropes. Objects such as miniature arrows, shoes, cradle, bronze coins, kneecaps of goats and pigs were tied to the knots to show the number of generations, number of members (male and female), etc. in a family. This information was also verbally passed on to the later generations. Such were the earliest forms of Chinese genealogical record.
The written "Jia Pu" contains entries about the migrations of the people and social evolution. It tracks the growth of the clan members by recording in detail their political, military and academic achievements. It also eulogizes the clan's ancestors and encourages the future generation to do worthy causes to maintain the good name of the clan.
A "Jia Pu" usually begins with the primogenitor that first settled or moved to a place and started his family there, and should end with the contemporary generation that draws up the genealogy. The intermediate ancestors are to be enumerated in between. The primogenitor's sons and descendents compose the first six generations and are tabulated on one form. The primogenitor's first-borne son and subsequent first-borne grandsons are listed vertically downwards on the right, while the brothers of the first-borne are listed laterally on the left. Descriptions of each generation are confined in relatively narrow, horizontal divisions of the form. These spaces contain information such as the ancestor's name and aliases, date of birth and death and official rank. The proceeding generations are recorded in a similar manner."
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Post by FayChee on Nov 14, 2018 21:41:27 GMT -5
I have a question about the new Situ Zupu pages. The headings (which I can't read) are identical except for the 3rd character from the right (blue arrow).....there are 81 pages that look like this, then the 3rd character changes for another number of pages and so on...... So I am assuming that the 80 pages with this same 3rd character are family trees from the same Village (Dajin li), of which page 70 holds Quan You Seto's Family Tree.....is that a correct assumption?
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Post by Doug 周 on Nov 14, 2018 23:27:49 GMT -5
I take a little different point of view, similar but not exactly what twoupman writes on House of Chinn: Genealogical Recordsclick . What FayChee wrote is consistent with Professor Sheau-yueh Janey Chao of CUNY. Chau IMO is the English speaking expert of genealogical records this side of the International Date Line. Remember, the Cultural Revolution target the zupus and destroyed many of them, especially in the urban centers of Northern and Central China. Therefore, the term zupu is not used as regularly. Literally, zupu 族譜 is defined as family clan, ethnic group, tribe, or village ( 族) record ( 譜). It contains the lineage of all the families of the village. It will be many volumes. It is used as the census and for adjudication of disputes within the village elders. This was why it was targeted for destruction by Mao. The jiapu (家譜) is defined as house, home, residence; family ( 家) record ( 譜). It is the immediate family. Whereas it can be wide (with uncles, second and third cousins), it is more likely to be deep as a single lineage. It tries to reach the progenitor of the village (the founder of the village). The generation number (#24 for Sophie’s 'Aba' or grandfather) denotes one's place in the clan hierarchy. philiptancl ‘s charts are jiapus. Frequently philiptancl ‘s jiapu charts go back to Huangdi. Here is an uploaded 16 minute snippet from Yo-Yo Ma’s zupu having been discovered by Gates. Please enjoy before I get a cease and desist order. IMHO
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Post by chakrajuices on Nov 15, 2018 0:21:18 GMT -5
Fay, Thank you so much for the information on Zu Pu it's incredible to think that my GF's ancestry goes so, so, so far back and how they recorded their Clan history its AMAZING!
So, much reading and information to digest - but I'm so happy to do so!
I do wonder sometimes when I google things whether it's real or not and to hear it from someone is far more reliable for me - thank you!
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Post by chakrajuices on Nov 15, 2018 0:23:48 GMT -5
Hi Doug, I am currently watching the video and so appreciate that - absolutely, amazing!
Wow, that was a great video and hearing the tradition of and Ancestral Character or name is amazing, plus so much more!
I can't wait to be able to go with my Mum and siblings to visit her Father's village and meet her family - well one day.
Thank you so much!
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Post by FayChee on Nov 15, 2018 9:03:49 GMT -5
Hi Doug, I was hoping that someone would put more about what the Zupu and Jiapu are......I just saw it on a website that I happened to pass while researching and thought it sounded alright. I know it was covered in prior older posts, but I didn't have the time to search for it. I can't wait to watch the Yo-Yo Ma video...
Thanks again, Fay Chee
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Post by Doug 周 on Nov 15, 2018 11:58:29 GMT -5
For the longest time I felt zupu and jiapu were synonymous. My cousins in Shanghai did not use these words. Janey Chau uses the terms synonymously. Yet my cousins living in the USA and my father-in-law memorized their jiapu as childhood lessons. The zupu are very extensive, with many volumes. They were the compilation of everyone’s jiapus. The reason I posted the Yo-Yo Ma video is to show the many volumes of zupus offered by Gates. Ma’s original zupus were bound printed books not hand written. Finally, this article help to gel the difference: The Clan and the City: Sustaining Cooperation in China and Europeclick .While not mentioning the zupu, it discusses the difference in governance of villages in China compared to the hamlets in Europe. The zupu was the reference for centuries of local governance of villages in China. This finally explained (to me) why Mao Zedong launched the Cultural Revolution, burning the Ancestral Halls and the zupus, to regain control of China. These are jiapus:These are zupus:All this is my personal opinion. Probably too much information.
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Post by Doug 周 on Nov 15, 2018 12:06:29 GMT -5
Philip generates these beautiful jiapus:
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Post by FayChee on Nov 15, 2018 14:00:01 GMT -5
Doug, your examples really helped clarify in my mind the differences between the Jiapu and Zupu. My family and I love the colorful Jiapu that Philip Tan made for me several years ago. It is about 34" x 54" and hangs in my hallway. Whenever a niece or nephew comes to visit, they get the grand explanation of all the ancestors that came before us. I gave copies to my siblings and their children. The work of Philip Tan is such a blessing to my whole family and I can not thank him enough. Fay Chee
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