Interesting location/village conundrum

[jeremychin]

Hi all,

Reaching out as I am doing some research for a new friend and hit a roadblock.

The ancestor in question is Bock Suey Chin, who was born in San Francisco in 1883. At some point Bock Suey traveled east to Philidelphia where he lived in both Philly and Camden NJ. He is buried in Philly.

We dont know anything about Bock Suey's parents (names, when they immigrated to us), except for the mother was Hung Shee and went back to China early on.

The confusing piece is the location on the gravestone vs the location of Bock's mother's residence in Toisan. The gravestone points to 墩寨鄉 Tun Chai, (no specific village listed) which according to the database has no Chin villages. (Does anyone know of any Chin villages in 墩寨鄉, area 8?)


villagedb.friendsofroots.org/display.cgi?level=Heung&id=111

An immigration record from Bock's travels back from China in 1917, shows a location of last residence for Bock and his mother as "ping chow." I am taking an educated guess that ping chow could be 平洲, which seems to be the only village by this name, and a Chin village too. This village however is in 上澤鄉 Sheung Chak Hueng, Duan Fen.



Any one have any ideas? Maybe Bock's father was a paper son if he came to the U.S 1982 or 1983?

Thanks as always!

- Jeremy

[ginagaladriel]

@jeremychin 

Hi Jeremy,

Long time no hear, hope all is well.

As you know I'm not Chinese literate, but I found the following information

Pingchow (Pingzhou) 平舟

on a website of chinese stamps, (I was unable to get in the website, but at least it did show on the site description



Hopefully it helps or at least gets you to the closet location

[Henry]

Jeremy,

Bock Suey Chin was born in the San Francisco, US and yet- on his gravestone is 墩寨鄉 Tun Chai Heung /Dunzhai Xiang, Taishan and last residence of Bock Suey & his mother was 平洲 Ping Chau.

Ping Chau may have been the ancestral village of Bock Suey's father, who was a Chin and this village Ping Chau is confirmed to be a Chen village near the large town of Duanfenzhen [端芬镇]. Possibly the Ping Chau Chin village genealogy book may have the name of the father of Bock Seuy and if they found his name and it his wife was listed as from the 孔 clan.

The other possibility as alluded to by you is that Bock Suey Chin was a paper son - but, I have never seen where a paper son had on his gravestone - the Chinese name & the village name Dunzhaicun [ 墩寨村] of the person he was supposed to be. If true, this is the first instance I have ever seen.

Looking at this map, Ping Chau [平洲], Dunzhaicun [ 墩寨村], each is approximately 7 miles from Duanfenzhen [端芬镇]

Henry

[jeremychin]

Hi Gina,


Yes, it has been a while! Hope all is well with you too. Thanks for trying to help! I took a look at that link and it says that Pingchow is near Dushan, and from my research, Dushan is in Guizhou Provence which is a little north-east of Guangdong. Guizhou is the area where there is a large population of ethnic Chinese, especially the Miao. A friend is there right now, and if you ever get the chance, you need to visit. Looks like such a rich culture and diversity there.



    


- Jeremy

[jeremychin]

Hi Henry,

Thanks for the response! This is a very intriguing case. I have since found some more information that may move towards the theory of Bok's father being a paper son. I just got some interesting information on Bock Suey's son, and his grave states that his surname was Ng/Eng. I am trying to get clarity from a family member if they know why Bok Suey is a Chin, and his son is an Eng. My thought was that Bok Suey wanted his son to carry on his real Ng surname, and as his son was second gen American born, changing his name would not have been much of an issue, or raise questions? I am also seeing a few Ng villages in 墩寨鄉... I think they will need to obtain birth and death certificates for Bock and his son.

My maternal grandparents came here under the paper name Jue, pre 1950 (my grandfather in the 30's and grandmother in the late 40's) My mother and her siblings were born Jues. In the late 50's/60's, they all legally changed their names to their real surname Lee. Hence, my grandfather has his real name and village on his grave. I too though have not seen this practice done very often...   


- Jeremy  

[jasonwu]

Hi Jeremy,

Interesting break you've made in your friend's family history.

In your initial post, I recognized the 勳 "Fun" character in Bock Suey's Chinese name to be a generational character of the 翰苑房 Hon Yuen branch of 伍 Ng clan, of which my mother and a few other Ng commentors of the Siyi Forum belong to. This character belongs to the 24th generation, the generation of my maternal great-great-great grandfather. What I am getting to is that, 勳椿 "Fun Toon" may be Bock Suey's married name according to his true Ng generational poem, while "Bock Suey" might be his Chin paper name.

Upon reviewing the villages list in the 1933 "Lingnan Ng Clan Genealogy," I noticed there is one mention of 墩寨 Tun Chai which might confirm the association with the Hon Yuen branch:

Village: 墩寨 橫崗鄉 Tun Chai, Wang Kong Village

Branch: 翰苑 Hon Yuen

Progenitor: 梅邊後 松軒公後 運柱運始運賦三公 Mui Bin - Chung Hin - Wan Chu, Wan Tsee, Wan Fu

Population: 六百餘丁 Over 600 males

Communication through: 順安市 聯益號  Shun On Market, Luen Yik Shoppe

Notes: 鄉屬 橫岡 平岡 高岡 龍岡 四村 Villages include Wang Kong, Ping Kong, Ko Kong, Lung Kong (4 villages)

(Link to FamilySearch.org microfilm scan.)

While there is a 橫江塘 Wang Kong Tong village listed in 墩寨鄉 Tun Chai Heung within the VDB (villagedb.friendsofroots.org/display.cgi?level=Heung&id=111), there are also 橫光 Wang Kong and 龍崗 Lung Kong villages listed in 聯安鄉 Luen On Heung nearby, perhaps near enough to had been part of 墩寨鄉 Tun Chai Heung at one point (villagedb.friendsofroots.org/display.cgi?level=Heung&id=101). It is worth mentioning that 聯安鄉 Luen On Heung also has numerous 熊 Hung villages, a rare surname in Toishan.

Jason

[Henry]

Jason,

Another typical amazing post - wow !

Henry

[gckimm]

Hi Everyone:

I noticed that there is no Chinese surname on the grave marker of Jeremy's ancestor Bock Suey Chin. My guess is that someone was nervous about using Mr. Chin's true surname on the grave marker. The U.S. government had an amnesty program going in the early 1960s for Chinese who had entered the country illegally but there was still wide mistrust on the part of the Chinese community and many did not make use of that program. I know that even today there are some Chinese Americans who are squeamish about telling people their true names. This is a sad legacy of government-sanctioned anti-Chinese discrimination in this country.

On to a happier topic. The Hon Yuen branch (or "house") of the Ng Clan, centered in Toishan, has finally published its updated genealogy. This project started a couple of years ago, when the call went out to clan members everywhere to send in their genealogical information to the editors in China. Due to various issues, the publication that was originally anticipated to be last summer was delayed until this summer. The genealogy is composed of several volumes, including one with introductory material and a general history of the clan and then three more volumes, with each one containing the descendants of one of three brothers in the fifth generation. Everyone in the Hon Yuen house is a descendant of one of those brothers.

The Hon Yuen genealogy is currently on sale at the ancestral temple that members of the Hon Yuen house rebuilt a few years ago in the town of Dai Gong, Toishan 台山市大江鎮. It is expensive--but not as expensive as it was to have copies sent to the United States. The copies that I bought for myself and members of my family are on the way and should arrive in about a month (fingers crossed). However, I only ordered sets of two volumes, the first volume and the volume that has to do with descendants of the third of the three brothers I mentioned above. There are apparently so many descendants of that ancestor that the volume for his descendants is actually two volumes!

I am a descendant of Chung Hin 松軒, mentioned by Jason above as one of the ancestors of clan members living in Tun Chai. When my books arrive, I can check to see if there is anyone there by the name of 勳椿. Jeremy, it would not be a bad idea to remind me.

Greg

[jeremychin]

Jason,

Thank you for lending your expertise and interesting knowledge on the Ng clan! It is so awesome to have people here with such a diverse set of research skills on hand. The generation poem can definitely be a break that leads to tracing my friends ancestry. I am hoping to get the Chinese name of Bock Suey's son. If we can match that to the next character in the generation poem, that will confirm a lot. Would you be able to you post the full generation poem?


Interestingly, I have learned that Bok Suey's kids were all born in China. He must have been born here, went back to the village had kids, came back to settle in Philadelphia, and then his kids followed him afterwards. This gives good chance that his kids were given a generation name and possibly, the next generation got one as well, who are still alive.  

That Lingnan Ng clan genealogy mentioning Tun Chai along with knowledge of Bock's mother being a Hung solidify my hunches. I do not know anyone with the last name Hung and it looks like they only populated the Luen On Heung area, which is why it is so rare, at least in the Siyi region. The question now will be, what specific village in either Tun Chai or Luen On did Bock come from. It seems you have narrowed it down to 6.

Thanks for the amazing research. This gives great confidence that I was looking in the right direction.


- Jeremy   

[jeremychin]

Hi Greg,

Glad to hear from you and hope you are doing well! It has been a while! It looks like my friends great great grandfather tried to keep his identity hidden while giving future generations a clue of his ancestral roots with the Heung. It is lucky that he did that as he was born in America. Also, his son who is also buried in Philadelphia does not have any marker for his place of birth, so Bock's heung is a saving grace.


Thanks for your insight into the new Ng clan genealogy of the Hon Yuen Branch. I'm glad it has finally came out. I hope that the Family Search Library or My China Roots are able to get a copy for digital scanning. I will definitely let you know when I get more names so you can check the volumes you ordered when they come in. Thanks as always!

- Jeremy

[jasonwu]

Hi Greg,

Great to hear that the genealogy is now ready for distribution - I know that my maternal uncle (Ai Kiu) donated some money to the publication effort but I do not know if he will be getting a bookset mailed to Canada, or if he plans to pick it up himself from the ancestral hall in Dai Gong during his next trip to China. Please do let us know if you find 勳椿 Fun Toon in the sub-branch of Ancestor Chung Hin 松軒 when you have the time to skim through.



Jeremy,

These are the generation characters in the verse of the Hon Yuen branch generational poem where 勳 Fun appears:

23th gen - 鴻 Hong

24th gen - 勳 Fun

25th gen - 耀 Yiu

26th gen - 烈 Leet

27th gen - 祖 Doo

If our hypothesis is true, Bock Suey's son should have the character 耀 Yiu in his married name.

-Jason

[jeremychin]

Jason,

Thanks! I am waiting for word of a potential Chinese name for Bock's son. Seeing the Yiu character or romanization will be the ultimate confirmation! Thanks again for sharing your knowledge on the Ng clan!

- Jeremy

[jeremychin]

Hi everyone,

So this is the latest update. It looks like Bock's son Joseph was born in Philly and was known as Chin Gum Wai 陳錦惠. He actually retained the paper surname Chin until he finally changed it over in the 60's. It is very confusing as the stories being told by relatives vary from the immigration and military documentation I am finding and being provided. They originally said that Joseph was born in China but the official docs say otherwise... I was though able to get the marriage/wedding invite for Joseph Chin/Eng. Can anyone tell me the names mentioned and if there are any specific place names or dates?



Thanks again!!

- Jeremy

[gckimm]

Hi Jeremy:

My copy (actually, copies) of the Hon Yuen genealogy arrived a couple of days ago. The editors had the good sense to create an index of names, which I have searched for an ancestor by the name of 勳椿. Unfortunately, there does not appear to be any listing for this person. I also searched for 錦惠 and had no luck. I wish I had better news. If you happen to get more names to check in the future, please let me know.

The wedding document does not contain any names of members of the Ng clan. It says it is for the wedding of Chun/Chin Gum Wai. The names listed there, other than the bride and groom, are names of those involved with the wedding: minister, go-betweens, etc. The only place name is Toishan County, listed as the native place of both the bride and groom. As for dates, there are dates of birth for the bride (1921.5.1) and groom (1920.8.8) and the date of the wedding (1940.8.15). The wedding took place at the Chinese Baptist Church of Hong Kong.

If there is anyone else out there who would like me to look up names in the Hon Yuen genealogy, please feel free to ask.

Greg

[jeremychin]

Hi Greg,

Thank you so much for looking for me. I'm glad you got your copy so quickly. Also, that index of names makes things so efficient! If all new editions of zupus had that, it would make life so much easier. If I come up with any other names I will let you know, however I am afraid that their real names got lost when assuming their paper name identities...  I really hope my friend's family can find any more hidden documents or written letters. He is probably in there or at least Bock/Fun's father, but without a real name... I think we have run out of options, unless they were to go back, visit the village and ask one of the elders if they remember any of them. Also, getting a jiapu and finding a recent ancestor that married a Hung... It might work depending on how large the village is. Do any of these zupus identify parts of certain lines by village name? Or have village names in an index that relate to the first progenitors of that village? Because if you have a large volume or volumes of trees, being able to narrow down by village might make things a little easier at least to know you are in the right place/ on the right tree line. 

Jason- I can't find 橫江塘 on a map. I'm thinking that you might be right that 同安鄉,聯安鄉 were part of 墩寨鄉 at one point. Because even though 橫江塘 is a Ng village, it is not the 岡 that is stated in your Lingnan book. And the numerous Hung villages in that area make it even more plausible.

Are the correct coordinates for Lung Gong, Ku Gong and Wong Gong: 22.074499, 112.629386? I think the 橫光 entry in the VillageDB might be a typo? because I see 橫岡 grouped together with 高岡 龍岡. But I don't see 平岡 near the others? The only Ping Gong I found was back in 墩寨... 22.010782, 112.703051. Not sure if that makes sense... 


Thanks again to you both! I really appreciate it.

- Jeremy