Advice in translating Liu/Lue Zupu from Lin Ma Hang

[chrisls]

Hello everyone,

My name is Chris Lue-Shing.  I am new to this forum although I have read some of the post and have actually met one of the members, Robert Hew at the NY Hakka Conference in October.


I am of Chinese/Jamaican descent.  My great-grandfather 劉木勝 Lue Muk1 Xin4 was a Hakka from the village of Lin Ma Hang (蓮麻坑) in the Sha Tau Kok area of Hong Kong, but it is very close to the border.  My great-Uncles, my great-grand father's eldest two sons, Samuel Lue-Shing (劉水有) and Wilbert LuShing (劉恩慰) were sent from Jamaica as boys back to Lin Ma Hang to study and be enriched in their ancestral culture.  As a result, my Great-Uncle wilbert maintained contact with his cousins in Lin Ma Hang and provided his son with those contacts and ancestral information about the village. 

Last year, that son, Steven, my cousin, travelled back to the ancestral village and met his cousins in Lin Ma Hang.  They provided him with a copy of the Lie/Lue clan Zupu.  My cousin's wife is able to read chinese but because the Zupu is written in a very literary and semi-calligraphic style, she has only manage to translate a few pages .  However, she has managed to identify my great-uncle's line in the zupu as well as a number of other cousins who also immigrated to Jamaica.  However, those pages only appear to go back 3 generations: my great-uncles, my great-grandfather, and my great-great-grandfather (Zheng Fook 振福).  There are pages of other lineages, but according to her, they are different houses and have no direct line to my ancestors.

However, from what she was able to glean from the first pages of the zupu it states that the 20 generations ago a group of men settled at the village and that they were 14 houses of Liu/Lue, but she said that she was not able to translate some of the writing that might tell which house would be the direct lineage of my great-grandfather's.

As it is apparent, I do not speak nor read Chinese and I am also unfamiliar with the detailed history of Hakka in that region.

Besides wanting to know how to connect the lines, I wanted to understand how the collection of houses were assembled.  If there was a group of men that originally made up 14 houses of Lue/Liu were these 14 separate families with the common name of Lue/Liu or were they all related in some way prior to migrating to Lin Ma Hang, or was this merely a group of Hakka who established the Lue/Liu name in the village?

I will provide a link to the zupu for anyone willing to take a look at it.  I will also attach a picture of the page in which my line appears.

drive.google.com/open?id=1XL6HOdTu5901z46eOdKo5CR9zFtaIpxv

Thanks in advance for any assistance

Attachments:

Zupu - Lau Clan- Page 46 Page 92 English No....pdf (128.54 KB)

Zupu - Lau Clan- Page 47 Page 93 English No....pdf (122.44 KB)

Zupu - Lau Clan- Page 48 Page 95 English No....pdf (77.94 KB)

[jasonwu]

Hi Chris,

Welcome to the forum. Very pleased to hear that you got your hands on these genealogical manuscripts. I skimmed through your PDF and have made some notes for you.

At the very beginning of the document, it lists many ancient generations of the Liu (Lau) clan, including emperors of the Han dynasty (pages 11-18). In additional to the written lineages, there are diagrams of the burial places of most of these ancestors (pages 39-45). You might want to ask your cousin-in-law if she can take another look at those pages. I believe she might be able to extract a continuous lineage from them.

Then, beginning from page 49, it goes into more recent generations:

- 開七, a descendant of the many generations listed prior

- 廣傳, only son, birthed 14 sons (the 14 families that your cousin-in-law mentioned)

- 巨源, 1st son, lived in 江西南安府 Nan'an Prefecture of Jiangxi Province (present-day 贛州 Ganzhou)

- 宗文, 3rd son, migrated to 廣東河源縣 Heyuan County of Guangdong Province

- 十郎, only son

There is then a note of lack of information about the generations following 十郎 (page 67). What is known is that 洪雨 is the 1st son of a descendant of 十郎:

- 洪雨, 1st son

- 玉麟, only son, migrated to 寶安縣 Bao'an County (present-day Shenzhen and Hong Kong)

- 鼎亮, 3rd son, migrated to 蓮麻坑 Lin Ma Hang Village

- 廷發, 1st son

- 習禮, only son

- 文秀, 3rd son

- 振福, 2nd son, your great-great-grandfather

Let me know if you have any questions.

Best,

Jason

[jen]

Hi Chris. My dad's zupu shows the same ancestors until those 14 brothers. I have been able to get from all the names mentioned that my dads line is from the 4th son 宗逺 of the 1st of 14 sons 巨源. I think the information should be in there, just need some patience putting the names in a chart or tree. I'm chinese illiterate as well but I have managed, working backwards tho. Those names Jason mentions in the 2nd paragraph are not in my zupu tho.

[chrisls]

Nov 15, 2019 12:23:39 GMT -5 jasonwu said:

Hi Chris,

Welcome to the forum. Very pleased to hear that you got your hands on these genealogical manuscripts. I skimmed through your PDF and have made some notes for you.

At the very beginning of the document, it lists many ancient generations of the Liu (Lau) clan, including emperors of the Han dynasty (pages 11-18). In additional to the written lineages, there are diagrams of the burial places of most of these ancestors (pages 39-45). You might want to ask your cousin-in-law if she can take another look at those pages. I believe she might be able to extract a continuous lineage from them.

Then, beginning from page 49, it goes into more recent generations:

- 開七, a descendant of the many generations listed prior

- 廣傳, only son, birthed 14 sons (the 14 families that your cousin-in-law mentioned)

- 巨源, 1st son, lived in 江西南安府 Nan'an Prefecture of Jiangxi Province (present-day 贛州 Ganzhou)

- 宗文, 3rd son, migrated to 廣東河源縣 Heyuan County of Guangdong Province

- 十郎, only son

There is then a note of lack of information about the generations following 十郎 (page 67). What is known is that 洪雨 is the 1st son of a descendant of 十郎:

- 洪雨, 1st son

- 玉麟, only son, migrated to 寶安縣 Bao'an County (present-day Shenzhen and Hong Kong)

- 鼎亮, 3rd son, migrated to 蓮麻坑 Lin Ma Hang Village

- 廷發, 1st son

- 習禮, only son

- 文秀, 3rd son

- 振福, 2nd son, your great-great-grandfather

Let me know if you have any questions.

Best,

Jason

Jason,

Thank you very much.  I can't tell you how much I appreciate that you took the time to go through my Zupu and write down that ancestral line.  So, if I understand correctly, apart from the break at 十郎, this is a direct ancestral line from 開七 down to my great-great-grandfather 振福?  If so, that in itself is very enlightening, I feared that there may have not been any direct ancestral line beyond my great-great-grandfather.  I will provide my cousin-in-law with the information you provided to see if she may glean any further ancestral relations.

In the Chinese Cemetery in Jamaica they actually have my great-grandfather as hailing from the Village 徑肚 (Jìng dù) which is very close to Lin Ma Hang, less than 5 miles Northeast of Lin Ma Hang north of Shenzhen River at the foot of Wutong Mountain.  My cousin-in-law noted that on page 48 of the Zupu, it has a poem which tells why they moved and that there were 27 males settled in this village.  From other texts I have looked at (auto-translated from Chinese), Jìng dù was established by a Liu from Lin Ma Hang.  From my understanding, Jìng dù no longer exists but also that in the past the scope of Lin Ma Hang would have included Jìng dù village.

If I may ask, does page 48 provide any further clarification on which lines moved from Jìng dù or when?

Again, thank you very much Jason for your assistance.  Your kindness in this matter is most welcomed.

Take care,

Chris

[chrisls]

Nov 16, 2019 3:30:27 GMT -5 jen said:

Hi Chris. My dad's zupu shows the same ancestors until those 14 brothers. I have been able to get from all the names mentioned that my dads line is from the 4th son 宗逺 of the 1st of 14 sons 巨源. I think the information should be in there, just need some patience putting the names in a chart or tree. I'm chinese illiterate as well but I have managed, working backwards tho. Those names Jason mentions in the 2nd paragraph are not in my zupu tho.

Hello Jen,

Fascinating meeting someone else with the same ancestors so quickly. If I understand what you're saying is that we have a common ancestors up to the 14 brothers birthed by 廣傳, my ancestral line being his 1st son, and yours from his 4th? And you're saying in your zupu you don't have the line of the 1st son of 廣傳 or that it stops at 十郎 for the descendents of the 1st son?  (I'm not sure which paragraph you're referring to as the 2nd in Jason's message).

In either case, it's fascinating the breath and scope of the lineages.  Does your zupu have specific dates of birth or death?  I haven't been told that there are any specific dates in mine.

Take care,

Chris

[jasonwu]

Chris,

Glad to have been able to help in some way.

Yes, there is a continuous direct-line lineage in this manuscript from 開七 down to your great-great-grandfather besides the break between 十郎 and 洪雨 noted on page 67. There are also generations that precede 開七 listed towards the beginning of the manuscript, pages 11-18.

My apologies, in regards to the migration to Jingdu, I should elaborate that the manuscript notes that 鼎亮 migrated to 蓮麻坑徑肚村 Jingdu Village of Lin Ma Hang on page 69; I simplified this to 蓮麻坑村 Lin Ma Hang Village in my previous post. However, I have not seen the names of the 27 men who migrated to Jingdu on pages 48 or 69.

It is important to note that due to the migratory nature of the Hakka people (Hakka literally meaning "guest families"), many Hakka clans have branches spread out across Guangdong and Fujian Provinces, so it is not hard to find others with a similar genealogical background as yourself. In your case, it is most likely that your ancestors migrated to Bao'an County (present-day Hong Kong and Shenzhen) after the Great Clearance (1661-1669) in which coastal Cantonese populations were forced to migrate inland; since many Cantonese people did not return to their former lands after the clearance was lifted, the migratory Hakka moved in instead.

I checked Google Maps for the location of Jingdu. It turns out that although the village no longer exists, there is a China-Hong Kong border-crossing named after Jingdu, most likely due to the crossing bridge having taken the place of the original village. Click here to see the walking directions from Lin Ma Hang to the Jingdu Border-Crossing Bridge (1.4 km, a 18 min walk).

Jason

[jasonwu]

I just found a publication called 蓮麻坑村志 (Annals of Lin Ma Hang Village) on Google Books, click here to see it online.

The last two paragraphs on page 97 are of relevance to your lineage:

蓮麻坑劉氏家族先祖劉玉麟康熙二十四年（1685年）由廣東興寧遷來，先到打鼓嶺禾徑山，後來蓮麻坑，並在村內建祠堂。劉玉麟第三子劉鼎亮則「移居蓮麻坑徑肚村立業」。徑肚位於深圳河北岸梧桐山腳，歷史屬於蓮麻坑範圍。

Lin Ma Hang's Liu progenitor Liu Yulin migrated from Xingning County of Guangdong in 1685, first settling in Wo Keng Shan of Ta Kwu Ling, later settling in Lin Ma Hang, and building an ancestral hall in the village. Liu Yulin's 3rd son Liu Dingliang then "migrated to Jingdu Village of Lin Ma Hang". Jingdu is located along the northern banks of the Shenzhen River at the foot of Wutong Mountain, historically in the domain of Lin Ma Hang.

儘管有蓮麻坑村民在深圳河以北的長嶺地段耕作，起屋，但他們中間不少人仍保留兩頭家，在蓮麻坑主村仍然有房屋和土地。

Although villagers of Lin Ma Hang farmed and built homes on the north side of the Shenzhen River in the Changling Plains, many of them still maintained two homes, owning properties and farmland in the main village of Lin Ma Hang.

The following pages go on to explain how Lin Ma Hang was effectively split down its middle along the Shenzhen River when the China-Hong Kong border was officially created in 1898. In 1949, with the creation of the People's Republic of China, the Shenzhen River became a hard border between the two jurisdictions, since people on both sides of the river were no longer able to freely move across the border.

Jason

[jen]

Hi Chris,

My Zupu only continues listing the descendents of the 4th son only. So the names that Jason lists are not in my book: - 洪雨, 1st son, - 玉麟, only son, migrated to 寶安縣 Bao'an County (present-day Shenzhen and Hong Kong), etc.

As for the dates, in my book it says 生子諱廣傳明朝中, 廣傳 (our common ancestor) was born in the middle of the Ming Dynasty. I think that's the right interpretation . But maybe jasonwu can help to confirm this.

8 ancestors later is the first next birth date of around 1661 on today's calendar or in Chinese calendar Kangxi emperor Yuan year. After this the birth and death dates have been noted pretty consistently in the book for the next ancestors. One of those ancestors moved from Changle and setup the ancestral village in Nanmendun in Shenzhen. So the 4th son has been documented pretty well. Hope you find the complete information for your line as well. But I guess you're a super distant cousin if I connected the dots right...

Jen

[chrisls]

Jason,

I can't thank you enough for your knowledge and clarification.  Your explanation actually puts things a number of things together, and the fact that you could point out that a direct ancestor 鼎亮 Ding liàng migrated to Jing Du as told in the publication you cited is fascinating.

EDIT: I was thinking that the part of the book in which you reference that in 1898 with the formation of the China-Hong Kong border, that Lin Ma Hang may have been split from Jing Du, but looking at the map you provided, it appears that Jing Du is just south of the border.  The date is telling since my great grand-father immigrated to Jamaica in the late 19th century.  He was born in 1870 and married my great-grandmother in Jamaica in 1903.  So the border went up after he left Jing Du.  I am wondering if Jing Du's proximity to the border affected migration to Jing Du.  So that when my great grandfather's eldest sons returned to the ancestral village they had to return to the main Village and could not return to Jing Du.

This clarifies those geographic questions.

Another curiosity I have that may or may not be answered in the Zupu is the Chinese names of my great-grandfather.  As stated earlier my great grandfather's Chinese name as recorded in Jamaica specifically in the Chinese Cemetery records is 劉木勝 Liu Mu Sheng.  My Uncle Wilbert wrote his name phonetically as "Mok Shing".  However, in the Zupu his name is recorded as 維彬 Wéi bīn.  This appears to be a generational names, as his brothers have the name 維金 Wéi jīn and 維均 Wéi jūn, but other names of relatives are consistent.  My great-grandfather's two nephews which also immigrated to Jamaica are recorded on documents as 林貴 Lam Gui and 懐椿 Huái chūn, these names are directly in the Zupu with the correct relationship to my great-grandfather.  And the most specific evidence is the Chinese names of my Great-Uncles who travelled back to Lin Ma Hang from Jamaica are directly in the Zupu as 1st and 2nd son of 維彬 Wéi bīn.  So, there is little question that 維彬 Wéi bīn is my great grandfather.

However, It was explained to me that there may be several different names Chinese names, possibly a given name and an adult name.  Would a zupu lists somewhere different names of individuals?

Thanks for any thoughts on this in advance.

[jen]

chrisls, this post might help regarding the names: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/post/17023/thread, 3rd paragraph under "Chinese characters"

[chrisls]

Nov 18, 2019 2:01:34 GMT -5 jen said:

chrisls , this post might help regarding the names: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/post/17023/thread, 3rd paragraph under "Chinese characters"

Jen,

Thank you very much for that link.  I read the whole post, it's actually quite informative on doing genealogical research.  As I have been doing this for about a year, I can say many of the considerations in the post are quite true.

Regarding the specific part of Chinese names the points Rufus makes about the varying names are helpful as well.  In fact, I was looking at another post by Philliptancl which was also made similar points:


siyigenealogy.proboards.com/post/16827


where he clarifies the differences between the given name (míng 名), the adult name (zì 字), and a "nickname" (hào 号).    I am thinking that the name 木勝 Mu Sheng, may have been a hào 号, as the family lines in the Zupu appears to list the sons with generational characters, well at least many of the brothers have a common character.  And since my great-grandfather was married in Jamaica I don't believe there was any formal ceremony to give him an adult name although the marriage is noted in the Zupu with his first two sons.

I'm wondering when one would use one's given/adult/formal nickname on official records, since clearly the Jamaican romanization of my great grandfather's last name came from 劉木勝 Liu Mu Sheng ("Lue-Shing") and all the men were given anglican first names, his being "John".  His nephew Harry's Chinese name in the Zupu is on cemetery records, and his nephew Allan's Chinese name in the Zupu is on his "Certificate of Registration" from the Chinese Consulate.  So I'm presuming they are using their given names.  Harry never married, and Allan married a Jamaican woman, so I don't believe they were given adult names.

In any event, thanks for the further information.  It's all a fascinating learning experience.

-Chris

[chrisls]

Jason, 

If I may ask a quick question.  I just want to know if the Village of Jing Du was on the Northern Side of the Shenzhen River in what is now mainland China, or the Southern side in what is now HK.  I'm confused as to its former location as the quote from "Annals of Lin Ma Hang" (on my reading) is saying that it was on the North Side:

徑肚位於深圳河北岸梧桐山腳，歷史屬於蓮麻坑範圍。



Jingdu is located along the northern banks of the Shenzhen River at the foot of Wutong Mountain, historically in the domain of Lin Ma Hang.

This makes it sound as if the Village was on the Northern side ("Northern Banks") of the River in what is now China.  Also the Wutong Mountain mentioned appears on the map on the Northern Side in the Mainland.  Although I guess the foot of it would extend considerable far from it. 

But in your second to last post, you stated that the "Border-crossing [bridge was] named after Jingdu, most likely due to the crossing bridge having taken the place of the original village".

So, if I'm correct, in your last post, you were clarifying the location and saying in essence when they created the border, the Village when it existed was cut off from Lin Ma Hang? As the village of Jingdu would have actually been in the mainland?

Thanks

-Chris

Attachments:

[chrisls]

Nov 15, 2019 12:23:39 GMT -5 jasonwu said:

Then, beginning from page 49, it goes into more recent generations:

- 開七, a descendant of the many generations listed prior

- 廣傳, only son, birthed 14 sons (the 14 families that your cousin-in-law mentioned)

- 巨源, 1st son, lived in 江西南安府 Nan'an Prefecture of Jiangxi Province (present-day 贛州 Ganzhou)

- 宗文, 3rd son, migrated to 廣東河源縣 Heyuan County of Guangdong Province

- 十郎, only son

There is then a note of lack of information about the generations following 十郎 (page 67). What is known is that 洪雨 is the 1st son of a descendant of 十郎:

- 洪雨, 1st son

- 玉麟, only son, migrated to 寶安縣 Bao'an County (present-day Shenzhen and Hong Kong)

- 鼎亮, 3rd son, migrated to 蓮麻坑 Lin Ma Hang Village

- 廷發, 1st son

- 習禮, only son

- 文秀, 3rd son

- 振福, 2nd son, your great-great-grandfather

Jason, I apologize for asking so many questions.  I purchased the book [Annals of the Village Lin Ma Hang] you cited, and found the section through google translate entitled "Liu Family".  It appears to provide the same ancestor list as you provided from my family's Zupu.  It appears as follows:


據民國期間重修的一份《劉氏族譜》，蓮麻坑村劉氏入粵始祖為劉開七，擔任過廣東潮州府總鎮，過世後葬於廣東興寧。劉開七後裔經劉廣傳、劉宗文、劉十郎、劉洪雨，傳至劉玉麟。劉玉麟「移居廣東寶安縣禾徑山」，「葬於竹山凹」。禾徑山和竹山凹皆位於香港新界。劉玉麟第三子劉鼎亮則移居蓮麻坑，後來又到徑肚立業。徑肚位於深圳河北岸梧桐山腳，當時屬於蓮麻坑範圍

Google Translate gave:

According to a "Liu's Genealogy" rebuilt during the Republic of China, Liu's ancestor of Linmakeng Village was Liu Kaiqi, who served as the general town of Chaozhou Prefecture in Guangdong. He died in Xingning, Guangdong. The descendants of Liu Kaiqi passed Liu Guangchuan, Liu Zongwen, Liu Shilang, Liu Hongyu, and passed to Liu Yulin. Liu Yulin "migrated to Hejing Mountain in Baoan County, Guangdong Province" and "buried in Zhushan Concave". Both Wo Keng Shan and Zhu Shan Fu are located in the New Territories of Hong Kong. Liu Yulin’s third son, Liu Dingliang, moved to Lin Ma Hang, and later went to Jing Du. The trail is located at the foot of Wutong Mountain on the north bank of Shenzhen River.

So from this translation, it appears to give the direct line from 開七 to 鼎亮 as follows:

開七 [Kāi Qī]
廣傳 [Gung Chuán]
宗文 [Zōng Wén]
十郎 [Shí Láng]
洪雨 [Hong Yu]
玉麟 [Yù Lín]
鼎亮 [Ding Liàng]

It appears to skip 巨源 [Jù Yuan] in your translation, and doesn't mention a gap, so I'm guessing this is an informal account of the lineage or perhaps this accounting is from a another Zupu of perhand a different descendant of Ding Liang?