Wang 王 clan from Guangdong (Shangshao Village of Xintang)

[perpetual]

Hi everyone! 

I am fairly new to this thread, though I've been lurking around, unsure whether I'd post it on the forums, but I've decided to do it!

I've recently found my 2nd great-grandfather's Chinese (and may be of Cantonese romanised version) name, and according to the resources (by the local Chinese museum that I've contacted, and the characters). His headstone says this:
     

         
              上
民     字   邵
国     寛   村
十     王   人
年     之   月 {民} 
六     塘
月     镇    


According to the research conducted by the Golden Dragon Museum, that "Fung (or Foon here) was actually his given name, and his proper Chinese surname was Wong Che Foon became known to Westerners as Charles Fung, picking up an English given name along the way." However it says... on the grave: Wang Zi Kuan? I can't verify whether it is 'Min' or 'Yue' on the bottom right of the headstone, nor do I recognise the remaining characters on the bottom left corner either.

Attached below is the picture of the grave, provided by the Golden Dragon Museum, and fellow researcher, Leigh McKinnon 麥利. 

[Henry]

perpetual,

The following is the map location of your ancestral village:



map.baidu.com/poi/%E4%B8%8A%E9%82%B5%E6%9D%91/@12651649.606996806,2635437.359504793,17.32z?uid=6ed71a958e53037db04c499c&ugc_type=3&ugc_ver=1&device_ratio=1&compat=1&querytype=detailConInfo&da_src=shareurl

Henry

[perpetual]

Apr 16, 2021 10:32:44 GMT -5 Henry said:

perpetual,

The following is the map location of your ancestral village:



map.baidu.com/poi/%E4%B8%8A%E9%82%B5%E6%9D%91/@12651649.606996806,2635437.359504793,17.32z?uid=6ed71a958e53037db04c499c&ugc_type=3&ugc_ver=1&device_ratio=1&compat=1&querytype=detailConInfo&da_src=shareurl

Henry

Hi Henry,

That's definitely the location, as far as I know, with the characters. It looks like 卲 to me but 上邵村 does appear to be a real place in Guangzhou

also 邵 is in my dictionary as a place name and a surname, 卲 just as a surname. So it's probably 上邵村. I'm also trying to figure out what the headstone above his name indicate.

[gckimm]

Hi perpetual:

I will try to clear up some of the confusion.

Let's start with the most important line, which would be the one in the middle. Because your ancestor was Cantonese, I will use the Cantonese dialect first. The characters are actually "子寬王之墳墓." This means "the grave of Wong Che Foon." In Mandarin the name would be Wang Zikuan. Here, as is common on traditional Chinese grave inscriptions, the surname, Wong, follows the personal name, Che Foon. (Usually, on grave inscriptions a term of respect 公 follows the surname of a man but in this case it is not present.）

Above the center vertical line is the name of the county from which your ancestor came. Unfortunately, the character on the right is completely illegible (more on this in a moment). The character on the left is 邑, which means "county."

The line of characters on the right side reads "上邵村人氏“； this can be translated "a native of Sheung Siu (Mandarin Shangshao) Village."

The line of characters on the left side is "民國十年六月初十日終於." Translation: "died on the 10th day of the 6th month of the tenth year of the Republic." This date is according to the lunar calendar. The Western date would be July 14, 1921.

Back to the county. I cannot find a reference to a 上邵 Village in Toishan/Taishan but there is one in what used to be Tsengshing 增城縣 (Mandarin Zengcheng) County, now a district in the city of Guangzhou 廣州市增城區.

I hope this information is helpful.

Greg

[Henry]

perpetual,

I located this village according to the information from the title of your thread - Wang 王 clan from Guangdong (Shangshao Village of Xintang

Usually, when a person is attending my China Workshop, included in the registration fee is research by a bi-lingual college student who verifies the ancestral village by calling the village chief to confirm the surname of the village & asks whether they might have a copy of the village genealogy book that contains the family lineage.

Then the researcher travels to the village to interview the village chief & elders, copies the village genealogy book, takes photos of the people, ancestral home, and village. Then compiles a village report to send to the attendee, in case there are any additional questions. During the China Workshop, the attendee is escorted in their own car to visit the village by the researcher & to meet the villagers.

If you are not attending the China Workshop and still want the research performed, then the research fee is $500 USD.

Henry

[perpetual]

Apr 17, 2021 1:35:29 GMT -5 gckimm said:

Hi perpetual:

I will try to clear up some of the confusion.

Let's start with the most important line, which would be the one in the middle. Because your ancestor was Cantonese, I will use the Cantonese dialect first. The characters are actually "子寬王之墳墓." This means "the grave of Wong Che Foon." In Mandarin the name would be Wang Zikuan. Here, as is common on traditional Chinese grave inscriptions, the surname, Wong, follows the personal name, Che Foon. (Usually, on grave inscriptions a term of respect 公 follows the surname of a man but in this case it is not present.）

Above the center vertical line is the name of the county from which your ancestor came. Unfortunately, the character on the right is completely illegible (more on this in a moment). The character on the left is 邑, which means "county."

The line of characters on the right side reads "上邵村人氏“； this can be translated "a native of Sheung Siu (Mandarin Shangshao) Village."

The line of characters on the left side is "民國十年六月初十日終於." Translation: "died on the 10th day of the 6th month of the tenth year of the Republic." This date is according to the lunar calendar. The Western date would be July 14, 1921.

Back to the county. I cannot find a reference to a 上邵 Village in Toishan/Taishan but there is one in what used to be Tsengshing 增城縣 (Mandarin Zengcheng) County, now a district in the city of Guangzhou 廣州市增城區.

I hope this information is helpful.

Greg

Hi!

Thank you very much for clearing the confusion with regards to the characters though I’m a beginner in understanding the characters...

Re: Henry,

I would love to pay the fee but at the moment, I don’t the sufficient funds or amount currently nor do I think it’s the right time.

Possibly in the future, I could request an investigation to the village of Shangshao. I will let you know when I’m free on this matter. As for the current matter, is it possible if I could request for the confirmation at much later time when I have the time and further information on Wang Zikuan or is it a requirement to provide payments? I’ve tried searching Chinese Genealogy FAQ for further information when I post but I couldn’t find it... As for the current situation of the headstone, I only needed a quick confirmation of his name, and his death date as well, since my other sources clashed with it. As for the abovementioned visit to the village... I don’t think I’d want that now but at much later time frame, as I don’t like to jump into conclusions, nor do I have time now.

Thank you Henry, you’ve been very helpful with the information!

[helen]

Shangshaocun (Sheung Siu)
上邵村
Zengcheng District, Guangzhou, Guangdong Province
China

[perpetual]

Hello everyone, 

It has been quite a while since I've lasted visited the forum. I have uncovered another location whereby the inscription may indicate, though it is largely unconfirmed, I will visit the cemetery sometime in the near future for a modern photograph as of nowadays. 


王子寬 (廣東新寧（甯邑）上邵村 )

Above, mentions the county of Xinning, Guangdong Province? I am not entirely sure if it is confirmed or not, but this remains in the air as to whether he is from the county himself. I am currently researching information if there is any mention of his name in the records here in Australia in the state of Victoria. 

Thanks, 

Thomas A. Morrissey

Update 1: I might've pinpointed his hometown, as it may have remained the same.. 



and; 





Source for confusion: Copy of Chinese Cemeteries In Australia Volume 2 (Bendigo) 

[Henry]

perpetual,

This is the location I found:

map.baidu.com/search/%E5%B9%BF%E5%B7%9E%E5%B8%82%E5%A2%9E%E5%9F%8E%E5%8C%BA%E6%96%B0%E5%A1%98%E9%95%87%E4%B8%8A%E9%82%B5%E6%9D%91/@12651657.015,2635436.79,14z?querytype=s&da_src=shareurl&wd=%E5%B9%BF%E5%B7%9E%E5%B8%82%E5%A2%9E%E5%9F%8E%E5%8C%BA%E6%96%B0%E5%A1%98%E9%95%87%E4%B8%8A%E9%82%B5%E6%9D%91&c=257&src=0&pn=0&sug=0&l=16&b=(12649048.886800034,2633928.1173600033;12654251.221340032,2637188.1986000035)&from=webmap&biz_forward=%7B%22scaler%22:1,%22styles%22:%22pl%22%7D&seckey=8fe10b83a079e35d58495da657b5d1f3a9831905231966f3f78511fb2901a2b75c488a6be485ea7a0c585dc5040fa3141de499c13ab07e5de213b0d5b04dbcd58daaed84623cc28e4df3f93e8bfb180d246a3282eaaca1d499c3537aeae898d133270b3cf3ee1adecdc379ff24117617a2adab192a2d58fd19c7a4f37c784a2427a7ff6f2d06847a59d3348f99ef5347c0f41947318831e3d44b2edc9f9d3a584e5e7c6453707c1aac1e5f84da134eb780b09447ca0905641e76e9ff691fc7bfc93741f3d44ea2450ffc972ec3aee07d4f26f9d3c396dbc332b13fbf75200434114fe3373eb03895b522616387a82790&device_ratio=1

Henry

[gckimm]

Hi Thomas:

寧邑 is indeed an abbreviation for Xinning (Cantonese: Sun Ning) County, the old name for Taishan/Toishan County. (The character you included above 寗 is a variant of 寧.) The problem is that I still can't find any online reference to a Shangshao/Sheung Siu Village located there. Of course, this doesn't mean that the village did not exist; it just means there is no mention of it on the internet. I also checked my copy of the Xinning County Annals 新寧縣志 from 1893 and did not find this name in a list of villages. A lot of small villages in China have changed names or have been incorporated into other villages over the years. Unfortunately, without any other clues, it is impossible to tell the exact location.

Greg

[perpetual]

Hi again Greg, 

Thanks for checking out the information with the annals you have in hand. It is indeed a wonder whether it is that village itself, or whether it is from Zengcheng District with conflicting sources of the whereabouts. 

Going back to Henry, thanks again for the help.  

Update: It is confirmed that the grave pinpoints Zengcheng District/County!

[perpetual]

Hi everyone, I hope you are all well. I have decided to come back into researching this topic, as I have a match with a Chinese relative from AncestryDNA whom shares a different surname being 'Gong' instead of Fung/Wong but it is clear that somewhere down the line that we are related through possibly our ancestors being siblings.

I would like to also re-confirm the image of the gravestones' location, and the name of this individual? As far as I am concerned, he was known as Charles Fung in records, and was always told that his name was Chaoi/Che Ah Fung.

However I am having difficulties in looking for other resources relating to Chinese literature in Bendigo. Thanks.

[helen]

Have you tried any Australian Face Book pages? There are a few available.

Shangshaocun (Sheung Siu)
上邵村
Zengcheng District, Guangzhou, Guangdong Province
China

[gckimm]

Hi Thomas:

The character you highlighted above is 增 and 增邑 at the top of the headstone is an abbreviation for 增城 Zengcheng. So the location of Mr. Wong's village (Shangshao or Sheung Siu in Zengcheng/Tsengshing County) has been identified correctly.

Charles Fung = Che Ah Fung. It is easy to be confused by the Romanization of the name. There was and still is no standard Romanization of Cantonese and the way Chinese people spelled/spell their names depends on a number of factors, including people's grasp of the language in their new home, the influence of others, differences in dialect, and personal preference. Note that surnames are especially confusing, as in most cases the citizens of the new country were not aware of Chinese customs such as placing the surname before the personal name or the use of the term "Ah" to express familiarity. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, it was common for Chinese people to end up using surnames derived from somebody's personal name or to drop the use of their surname altogether.

The names of Charles Fung are good examples of how some Chinese dealt with their names. As we have said earlier, his Chinese name was Wong Che (I would spell this "Gee") Foon, with Wong as the surname. But he became known as Charles Fung (Fung = a different spelling of Foon) or Che Ah Fung. In the former case, Fung (Foon) has become a surname and in the latter case, there is no surname and the term "Ah” is in the wrong place (his family and friends would probably call him "Ah Foon").

Greg

[perpetual]

I don't think I have reached out to them before. 

As for both Helen and Greg's comment, thanks for confirming as we have spoken. 

I would like to confirm his name as mentioned in the gravestone apart from his village; it's possible that the community he was involved in Bendigo were of Cantonese speaking as I have been told that the village of Shangshao in Zengcheng itself was bilingual being Cantonese/Hakka at that time hence the confusion for myself. 

I have been unable to track down his siblings as it is likely that they immigrated along with him perhaps sometime in 1860-1880s, I may have to reach out Australian-Chinese Association.