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Post by Henry on Feb 25, 2009 12:32:18 GMT -5
Philip & Xuangxing,
I am in awe of your 4th chart !
Beyond the lineage information, these color images of the ancestors are stunning and amazing.
Once again, you have exeeded my expectations!
I would like to point out to those delving deep into family/clan genealogy books - you are most fortunate to have the benefit of these dazzling images. Philip has gone through a considerable amount of effort and money to acquire the genealogy books from which these images are derived.
Henry
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Post by Henry on Mar 4, 2009 16:52:43 GMT -5
Dear Philip & Xuangxing,
I feel compelled and very pleased to congratulate you both for your very hard work and your efforts to share Chinese genealogical information.
This dynamic duo that has provide so much information to the Chen clan in particular and to the Forum in general with their amazing Chinese genealogy posts. Over the course of 9 short weeks, their thread has had well over 1,000 views of their work. Very well done - gentlemen !
Henry
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June
Member
Posts: 70
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Post by June on Mar 5, 2009 2:57:18 GMT -5
On behalf of many many beginners thank you to those people who have agreed to assist in these Clan groups. Particular thanks on my behalf to Philip as I am researching Chan.
I have only just noticed this thread so will have to go and read the postings.
Thank you June
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Post by Henry on Mar 15, 2010 0:13:13 GMT -5
Dear Colleagues,
I am delighted to announce that Stephen Lim has consented to serve as the Moderator for a new thread on the Lim clan.
It was my pleasure to meet Stephen during my last visit to Kuala Lumpur and I was impressed with his love and passion for Lim genealogy and his willingness to share his knowledge with everybody.
We are indeed fortunate to have access to his expertise.
Welcome to the SiYi Forum !
Henry
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Post by chansomvia on Mar 16, 2010 1:51:46 GMT -5
Hi Henry,
My wife is a Malaysian Lim and it it great to have Stephen Lim join this forum, it is unlikely my wife will look for her ancestral home as her late father was reluctant to divulge how he left China to go on a slow boat to Malaysia. But there are many others.
The Lim clan in Malaysia is huge and Stephen's presence will be a most welcome addition.
Joe
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Post by philiptancl on Apr 21, 2010 10:39:06 GMT -5
For those wishing to read the Chinese characters please select "View", "Encoding", "More" and "Unicode (UTF-8)". When Henry visited Malaysia in August 2008, Stephen Lim and I had the privilege for spending two full days with him mainly in our quest and understanding on Chinese genealogy. At that time both Stephen and I already have our branch surname zupu; Lim/Lin/Lam (æž—) for Stephen and Tan/Chen/Chan/Chin (陳) for me. Whilst I already could trace my pedigree lineage all the way to Huang Di (黄å¸) from my zupu, Stephen at first thought his zupu could only provide his pedigree lineage only to his ancestor in Yongchun (永春)(i.e. some 28 generations ago). Both of Stephen and I thought the zupus we already possessed would already cover all those from our respective ancestor villages. Since Henry visit, Stephen and I had delved deeper into our respective zupus. Subsequently, after spending two full days studying the structure and materials provided in his zupu, Stephen realized he too could actually trace his pedigree line all the way to Huang Di. He further realized that his zupu contains only one of the twenty two branches of Lim/Lin/Lam for the ancestor of his that first went to Yongchun. Stephen Lim is my first cousin once removed (his mother and I are first cousin). Unlike me who am literate only in English, Stephen can read and write both in English and Chinese. He is also very active in various clan organisations and the Lim/Lin surname associations. He is especially active Lim Surname Association of YÇ’ngchÅ«n MÄ›i ShÄn LÃn Shì (永春美山林æ°). MÄ›i ShÄn Lim (美山林) is more commonly known ShÄn WÄ›i Lim (山尾林). Having the vision to have as many Lim in Malaysia capable of tracing their ancestry as far back in time as possible, he recent mission is to collect all the 22 branches zupus for YÇ’ngchÅ«n MÄ›i ShÄn LÃn Shì (永春美山林æ°). Towatds this end Stephen, together with his father and one of his brothers, went to Yongchun (永春), Fujian, sometime at the end of March 2010, in search for all the other 21 zupus that he did not have. ShÄn WÄ›i Lim (山尾林) in Yongchun had since divided into two sub-sections; namely the Wà i ShÄn WÄ›i (外山尾) and the Nèi ShÄn WÄ›i (内山尾). Stephen would be from Wà i ShÄn WÄ›i (外山尾). He had just returned from his trip with all the zupus for the 22 branches for ShÄn WÄ›i Lim (山尾林); a complete set in photocopied Wà i ShÄn WÄ›i (外山尾) Association in Yongchun and the original zupus from Nèi ShÄn WÄ›i (内山尾). Stephen is currently very busy sending the various branches of Lim and members of his Lim Association to see if any members would want a photocopy of the zupu for the branch each of them belonged to. Stephen has the intention of the complete 22 branches zupus in Malaysia to include also descendants not already in the zupus. He is also trying to collect as many of the Lim from the 22 branches to be included. The 22 branches are as follow: 永春美山林æ°æ—è°± 1. 亨房 2. 馨房之尚泉公派(大二)åŠä»°æ³‰å…¬æ´¾(大长) 之长房 3. 馨房之仰泉公派二房 4. 馨房之仰泉公派三房 5. 馨房之仰泉公派四房内乾房 6. 馨房之仰泉公派四房内å¤æˆ¿ä¹‹æ–‡æˆ¿, 行房 7. 馨房之仰泉公派四房内å¤æˆ¿ä¹‹å¿ 房 8. 馨房之仰泉公派四房内å¤æˆ¿ä¹‹ä¿¡æˆ¿ 9. 馨房之仰泉公派五房 10. 进房之长房 11. 进房之二房åŠå››æˆ¿ 12. 进房之三房 13. 进房之五房 14. 瑞房 15. 绅房之长房, 二, å››, 五房 16. 绅房之三房 17. 熙房与淑房 18. 乔房之长房(ä¹”äºŒæˆ¿å› è¿ä½æ±—西, 故未入谱) 19. 乔房之三房 20. 乔房之四房 21. 洪房 22. å房 Using Stephen loose photocopy, I hope I would be able to assist him in scanning all the 22 zupus into pdf files. Stephen intends eventually to post these files in his Lim Association website for the benefit other Lim. The migration of MÄ›i ShÄn LÃn Shì (永春美山林æ°) is provide in the charts below. This first chart is to Yongchun (永春). The second chart is from Youngchun to other parts of Fujian. The third chart is from Yongchun to outside of Fujian to other parts of China and to other countries in the world. From the third chart, one can see that ShÄn WÄ›i Lim (山尾林) has spread to the following countries: 1. Australia 2. Brazil, 3. Germany, 4. Hongkong, 5. Indonesia, 6. Japan, 7. Malaysia, 8. Singapore, 9. Taiwan, 10. Thailand, 11. United States, and 12. Vietnam. Though Henry has invited Stephen to be moderator for Lim/Lin/Lam Clan Progenitor, he is too busy at the moment to post anything as yet. For those Lim/Lin/Lam (æž—) in this Forum reading this posting and belonging to one of the branches given above, I am quite sure that Stephen could include your family members into the branch zupu concerned should he eventually get the zupus printed in Malaysia. Do let us know if you are interested. So Chansomvia, if you wife is a Malaysian Lim her family may belong to one of the 22 branches. Philip
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Post by malia on May 17, 2010 15:43:23 GMT -5
Exciting to read thru these posts and to see how other family narratives have been charted and reconstructed. I am told that zupu on the Mark/Mak (麥) clan in Xinhui, Guangzhou, Nanxiong have been found by our contact -- but not Taishan, where our family is from.
Reading thru your posts makes me think that these other books could help contruct the family history much further back in history. My question is whether these books (same surname, but other regions) would serve any benefit as we try to write our particular family history, which is our current project? Would it be worth the expense to acquire and translate?
Thanks in advance!
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Post by philiptancl on May 19, 2010 0:09:27 GMT -5
Hi Malia, Your surname Mark/Mak (麥) (Mai in pinyin) does not appear to be a common one; at least in Malaysia. I am not able give you the straight forward answers to the questions you posed. In any case I will make an attempt, within my limited capability and with the limited observations I gathered so far from the very limited years since I started to pursue my interest in Chinese genealogy. Through this forum I have interacted with a number of others interested over the same subject and whose ancestral villages are from Taishan. I have also a number of jiapu/zupu (mainly with the same surname as mine) from Taishan or related to other places in Guangdong. Going by the Chan/Chen (陳) surname zupus, I do not think you would be able to find your own family ancestral line from other Mai (麥) zupus originating from other ancestral villages in Taishan. I make this observation based upon what I already have in my possession, the five zupus and/or lineages for Chan (陳) from Taishan and a few others from other parts of Guangdong. Having said that I need to qualify myself that that may not be the case should you find a recent production of zupu specifically for Mai/ Mark/Mak (麥) covering Taishan County; just like the one for Huang/Wong that I showed in my posting on Re: Adoptions in China pre1915 ? « Reply #11 on May 8, 2010, 1:33am ». Should you find any zupu/jiapu that was done, say pre-1949, it is unlikely you will be able to find your ancestry beyond the progenitor who first settled in your ancestral village or the one who first settled in Guangdong. However there is a tremendous surge in interest on Chinese genealogy in recent years and along with this, the compilation of surname clan zupus in many ancestral villages. Though your surname is not within the 100 most common surnames, those in Taishan and/or your ancestral village could well be undertaking the task for the benefit for future generations. As you may already know my ancestral village is from Yongchun County in Fujian Province. There the Chen (陳) and Lin (林) are very numerous and getting a zupu of your surname from your ancestral village does not mean you will be able to find your ancestral line there. The Lin (林) from Mei Shan (美山) has 22 branches; each having its own zupu. See my posting in Re: Moderator « Reply #20 on Apr 21, 2010, 10:39am » When I obtained my zupu from my ancestral village in Yongchun n August 2007, I thought I would be able to trace those all the Chen (陳) originating from my ancestral village. How wrong I was. Though mine is one of the main branches from the ancestral village, I noted from my zupu that there are 90 branches. Though I had already collected a few, I am not able yet to get hold of other Chen (陳) zupus for the many branches originating from my ancestral village. The latest I managed to get is one branch that went to neighboring Anxi County and subsequent another group of their descendants went to Taiwan. As to obtaining the zupus from the other places, and if you are a nut case like me, I would get them. However this is a decision that you yourself would have to make. Getting zupu is not like buying bric brac from a side alley in China where you can haggle over the price; it is not every day you can come across a zupu. I have quite a number of tales relating to getting of zupus (both from my experience and from tales others related to me). As to translating your surname zupu, whether from your ancestral village or for neighboring counties, that would depend on what aspect of genealogy you are interested in. If you are just tracing a pedigree line upwards, my take on it is that there is no need to do any translation even if the zupu/jiapu contains information on people for each succeeding generations and that there is no chart provided to show there connection from generation to generation. My experience is that you need to recognize certain key Chinese characters which is not so hard to do. After that it is a matter of undertaking how the Chinese genealogy records are basically compiled. To do this it does not mean that you should be able in reading and understanding Chinese. Even if you do, it does not mean you automatically know how to construct your family tree from the zupu/jiapu family records. You still have to overcome the mental block that the zupu/jiapu seemingly appears to be maze beyond your comprehension. That seems to be the obstacle even among those able to read and write Chinese. Maybe that could be reason why many Chinese I met (even those having their own zupu and they themselves know how to read and write Chinese) wonder how I could embark on tracing my family lineage without knowing know to read Chinese. However if you want to know the commentaries and history that are written within the zupus, then you need to get them translated. If you do, then you will encounter another set of problems. Many of these were written in classical Chinese. Those who are taught how to read and write Chinese nowadays from young to graduation, it does not mean that they are able to fully understand what are been written let alone meaningfully translate them. They could read all the characters within the passage and may vaguely understand some of what were written but to do justice to the translation is quite another matter. In Malaysia substantial portion of Chinese here in Malaysia are educated in Chinese schools, and increasingly so. I have yet to come across one that is able to understand classical Chinese. I attach below the Preface of a Huang/Wong (黃) family record (both in Chinese and English) compiled by an old school mate of mine (KS Wong) I just met again recently after 44 years (he was one year my junior in Senior High School). When he obtained his zupu and other related zupus for his surname (e.g. the one I showed in my posting on Re: Adoptions in China pre1915 ? « Reply #11 on May 8, 2010, 1:33am »), he embarked to get them translated. He has relatives who are teaching in Chinese schools but they are not able to translate them for him. Failing to get a good translator here in Malaysia, he managed through his sister to get a professor in Chinese with a university in Australia to do the translations for him. When I showed the book to someone to get an opinion on the translation, what was said is that the translation may be materially correct, but any translation would not have the same grace captured within the original classical Chinese. When one is not able to read and understand both Chinese and English how is one to judge the quality of the translation? For this I suppose you will need to get a sample page translated and get someone else to assess the quality of the translation. The other issue is what are the commentaries and history contained in a zupu that you would consider important to merit a translation. For this I suppose you can use the free translation software available through the Internet to provide you a rough guide as the needs to have a proper translation. Whilst one can put a price for acquiring something or getting something done, who am I to make a judgment on their worth? If your ask Henry Tom who already spent tens of thousand of dollars in his quest for his family genealogy, or Stephen Lim who also spent considerable amount in getting zupus for other Lim and his involvement with Lim genealogy in Malaysia, or to KS Wong on the amount he spent in actually physically going and locating the places that his ancient ancestors had moved from one location to another before subsequently landing in his ancestral place in China, I am sure all the three will say that it is worth every penny they had spent. KS Wong even sought out the authors of the zupus in China. They themselves were amazed to the extent that KS Wong had undergone in tracing his roots. Philip
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Post by Ah Gin on May 20, 2010 2:44:02 GMT -5
Philip,
Your long posting is very informative, insightful and passionate in the subject matter. Kevin (the owner of this Forum) -- may I suggest you specially mark this contribution, re: the value and the challenges of "translating" a Zupu. When someone asks a material to be translated, I always use the word "interpreted", as Philip rightly point out, (and I am interpreting what he posted here) -- verbatim translation is not nearly as easy as some might think, as sometimes, there are no direct meaning or words in English. Thrown in Classical Chinese and most (and you can count me in) will trip.
The value of a Zupu? I belong to a "small" Clan (Gin/Yan/Zhen) and I consider myself lucky, as the surname if unusual, and not as numerous as the Lee, Lim, Wong, etc. the number of Zupu is smaller, ie, there are a smaller set of branches. But even then, it took me a while to collect just just 14 Zupu -- and to me, all of them is worth its weight in gold. Using the Zupu, I had the joy of tracing my line to our Guangdong progenitor. I was also able to use it for our research (Chinese pioneers who came to Australia in the 19th century) -- and it was equally great joy to trace the living relatives of pioneers who went to Australia in the 1860s.
I am still searching for more Clan Zupu -- and this requires the help of our Clan Memorial Hall, back in Kaiping, China. And it is fun -- or is it? Perhaps I too am a Nut Case?
Regards, Ah Gin
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Post by malia on May 20, 2010 5:24:01 GMT -5
Philip, thanks much for so generously sharing your insight on the question I posed. What a balanced, informative intro to the subject -- appreciate reading both the broad view and your personal experience. I am so grateful to have found this site (and its passionate explorers). Ah Gin, I liked hearing about the positive side of belonging to a smaller clan (less branches to get tangled in!). I find all of this fascinating and think I may have some "nut case" potential as well. ;-) Cheers, Malia
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Post by Henry on May 30, 2010 16:46:13 GMT -5
Hi Malia,
I would just like to point out that we are very fortunate to have Philip as a member of our Forum, who has spent thousands of dollars in buying zupus and for sharing all the information that he has been able to compile from these zupus during the very short time that he has been doing Chinese genealogy research.
There are some who are unwilling to share such information and others that will only share if they are paid. Then there are many overseas Chinese that are unwilling to pay for any Chinese genealogy information. As one becomes more deeply involved in such research, they quickly learn that such information is very difficult to find.
I checked the Village DB and there does not seem to be any Mak villages in Taishan county. But, just because the Mak village is not in the Village DB - there may be some Mak villages in Taishan county. I did find 麥屋村 (Mak Uk Village) in Xinhui/Sunwui county.
Do you have the Chinese characters for the name of your ancestral village and possibly the Chinese characters for its nearest market town?
I would advise you to keep that copy of the Mak clan zupu found for Xinhui county- there are probably lots of overlap with a Taishan Mak zupu and it become very useful in confirming information from the Taishan Mak zupu - when you find it.
Henry
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Post by philiptancl on Jun 3, 2010 0:16:24 GMT -5
Hi Henry,
In this world different people would have different set of values, which I suppose they themselves would believe in and live by. Whatever one does, one can always justify ones action however unappealing that may appear to another. On Chinese genealogy, it gives me much pleasure for I learn as much as when I share. That itself may be unsavory to others who hold differing views. We are no moral guardian of the world and who are we to judge, let alone dictate, the way one should behave or do thing.
My collecting of jiapu/zupu is very much like drug addiction. I seem not able to resist in wanting a copy whenever I come across one. You probable could gauge the number I already have; I have not come around to make an inventory of them.
Philip
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Post by Ah Gin on Jun 5, 2010 15:43:36 GMT -5
Henry,
I agree with your sentiments. We are what we are and we ought to have the courage, conviction to do what we think is right. If we can help, we help. If we feel like collecting strange things, then forget about the world, but go ahead and do what we like. Can't take it with us, can we?
As a little grasshopper I received generous help from many and all I can do now is to pass on the goodwill by helping others.
Regarding collection of interesting things: you collect Zupu, I collect names. Here in New Gold Mountain, one of my strange hobbies is to collect Chinese pioneers names. Whenever I come across Chinese "signatures" seen in public records, I capture them. Usually these signatures have their transliterated names as well and that makes it worth its weight in gold, as it is easier for researchers to determine for certainty (More certain anyway) who is the real "Ah Foo". I digress. Happy hunting.
Regards, Ah Gin
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Moderator
May 14, 2019 8:26:07 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by limkhangwei on May 14, 2019 8:26:07 GMT -5
I am Lim Khang Wei I want to find my family in fujian nan an my grand grandfather name lim hong Gan 林 鸿 雁 came to kelantan Malaysia around 1900 years
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Post by philiptancl on May 14, 2019 10:10:04 GMT -5
Hi Limkhangwei,
I suppose what you are interested is to find the ancestral place in Nan’an from where your great grandfather originated from. If that is so, you need to find the name of that ancestral place in Nan’an. See if you can obtain that from the gravestone on the grave of your great grandfather.
Philip
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