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Post by xuangxing on Jan 21, 2009 11:35:26 GMT -5
I had forwarded a revision of the second chart posted by Xuangxing on January 7, 2008. Since it contained a few additions, I have requested him to post it as another chart rather than replacing the previous one. I hope the photos would give the readers a bit more color. This is the revision of the second chart from Philip.
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Post by philiptancl on Jan 24, 2009 2:46:44 GMT -5
Hi Xuangxing,
Thank you very much for the posting of Chart 2. I again had made some revisions. In this revision, I had identified some of the progenitors for some of the surnames connected to Chen. At the urging of Henry, I had included the portrait of the progenitor for Li. I had also replaced the portrait for Huang Di with the one that Henry just forwarded to me. I like Henry's version much better. Also Henry has most kindly provided invaluable advice and pointed certain inaccuracies for which I am most grateful.
Can you please replace the chart with the version I just emailed to you.
May I wish all readers of SiYi Forum a Happy and Prosperous Chinese New Year!
Philip
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Post by xuangxing on Jan 26, 2009 11:12:40 GMT -5
Hi Xuangxing, Thank you very much for the posting of Chart 2. I again had made some revisions. In this revision, I had identified some of the progenitors for some of the surnames connected to Chen. At the urging of Henry, I had included the portrait of the progenitor for Li. I had also replaced the portrait for Huang Di with the one that Henry just forwarded to me. I like Henry's version much better. Also Henry has most kindly provided invaluable advice and pointed certain inaccuracies for which I am most grateful. Can you please replace the chart with the version I just emailed to you. . . . Philip I would like to highlight that, as requested by Philip, I have amended the chart used in my post of Jan 21, 2009, 11:35am (Reply #15). Xuangxing
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Post by philiptancl on Feb 2, 2009 3:13:39 GMT -5
I refer to Henry request in the Moderator section under Reply #10: Also, I know that Philip is busy, however, since the Lee/Li clan is such a major clan - I invite Philip to fill in the lineage and possibly post an image of the Lee progenitor when he is able. In fact, for any of the other surname clans that he has already identified in his chart. This chart is a fantastic reference chart that can be used by all the clans that have already been identified. Henry I have updated the previous chart to include the names and pictures of the lineage to the Progenitor of Li (æŽ), Li Lì ZhÄ“n (æŽåˆ©è´ž). The source is from "世界æŽæ°æ—谱全书" ISBIN 7-80178-357-3. For the Li (æŽ) who are interested in their genealogy I would strongly recommend that you get a copy of this set of two books. It is printed on high quality paper. I got the set through Tan Shi Cheng (See SiYi Local Guide thread under Chinese Genealogy Section). Volume One is priced at 198 RMB while Volume Two at 260 RMB. This excludes the postage to me and the "red packet" to Shi Cheng. I have also included the names for the lineage for the Tián (ç”°) down to the Progenitor of Wáng (王). The spreadsheet is slightly more than 10 MB and I have forwarded it for Xuangxing to post. I hope he does not have any problem in posting. Philip
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Post by xuangxing on Feb 2, 2009 21:31:29 GMT -5
I have updated the previous chart to include the names and pictures of the lineage to the Progenitor of Lǐ (李), Lǐ Lì Zhēn (李利贞). The source is from "世界李氏族谱全书" ISBIN 7-80178-357-3. . . . I have also included the names for the lineage for the Tián (田) down to the Progenitor of Wáng (王). The spreadsheet is slightly more than 10 MB and I have forwarded it for Xiangxing to post. I hope he does not have any problem in posting. This is the spreadsheet from Philip, posted as a new thread at his request.
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June
Member
Posts: 70
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Post by June on Feb 4, 2009 4:24:08 GMT -5
I have read with great interest the postings in your topic. I am English with no knowledge of the Chinese language (apart from a few words learned from my husband) and I am trying to trace my husbands family - all very difficult because I know so little. Our surname is written as Chan and the majority of people call us Chan but my husband often tells us that it is not pronounced exactly as Chan but more like Chun. My husbands family come from just outside Jiangment (I am trying to find out exactly where - the closest I have come is one of my brothers in law saying it is Pak Sar, I also know that it is about a one hour walk from the centre of Jiangmen.
My father in law was just known as Chan Chong - I don't know why he only had two names and often wonder if it should have been Chan Chan Chong (would this be a possibility).
My mother in law's name on her death certificate is Chan Yit Foon, on another piece of paper it is Tang Yit Foon (I am presuming therefore that her maiden name was Tang) but on my husbands birth certificate it shows her name as Tang Fun Hee.
I also have my mother in laws death certificate in which it gives her husbands name as Chong Foo Yan Chan
I am trying to work out if any of this fits into your web site? probably not but I would be interested in hearing if you think that it would.
If it doesn't then thank you anyway.
June
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Post by philiptancl on Feb 4, 2009 4:25:37 GMT -5
I wish once again to thank Xuangxing for his posting In the lineage that goes down to the progenitor of Yú/Ee/Er/Yee (ä½™), Xuán XiÄo (玄嚣, 2) is quoted as such in "Genealogy and History: The Yu of Yi-mei and Chang-wan in Kwangtung's Xin-hui xian" by L. Eve Armentrout MA (see www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/afs/pdf/a477.pdf). However I understand from Henry that he is better known as ShÇŽo Hà o (少昊) and most sources reference him as such. I wish to apologize that some of the photos are rather distorted. This is in no way attributable to Xuangxing. It arose because the camera man that took those pictures for me did not direct his camera perpendicular to them. If there is a request, I could retake those photos again myself and repost them at a later date. I shall be forwarding the next chart to Xuangxing to post. This chart is from MÇn GÅng ZhÅu (闵公周,61,53,20) to Chén Shà GÅng (陈实公,89,81,48,1), the Progenitor of YÇng ChuÄn (æ½å·) Line of Chén (陈/陳). Also indicated are the other surnames originating from descendants of Shùn Dì (舜å¸). Ah Gin’s surname ZhÄ“n (甄) is one of them. I have yet to discover the actual lineage connection ZhÄ“n (甄). Would any colleague in this forum throw some light? Philip
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Post by philiptancl on Feb 4, 2009 8:03:26 GMT -5
Hi Alex,
I have read and follow your postings with some interest in this forum but as a baby in this forum just learning how to walk in genealogy, I do not have any credential to offer you any concrete advice especially when I hardly know anything about the various counties in Guangdong and the various dialects spoken there.
Until I met Henry personally in August 2008, I had always thought that people from Guangdong speaks 'Cantonese' (the way as spoken in Hong Kong and in Kuala Lumpur) and Hakka. When Henry spoke his SiYi dialect on his visit to Kuala Lumpur that was the first time I heard the dialect spoken. Even after meeting Henry, I had thought that there are hardly any people from SiYi region that settled in Malaysia. I had thought that people from SiYi normally settled in countries like US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, not Malaysia.
Following Henry’s visit to Kuala Lumpur in August 2008, articles on genealogy (centering on Henry) in Malaysia in the leading English newspaper (The Star) was published on September 14, 2008. Following the articles, many of my friends asked me about Chinese genealogy and from them I discovered that quite a number of my friends actually originate from SiYi. While they speak fluent 'Cantonese' I have yet to hear them speak the SiYi dialect and I doubt they are still able to.
Coming to your search as to the actual surname of your husband based on the various possibilities you have quoted, it will help if you can throw some light as to the place and country your husband, his father and his grandfather are from. That may throw some light as to the Chinese characters of the various possibilities you have quoted. In Malaysia the surname 'Chan' would almost certainly be Chen (陈/陳) from Guangdong. If it is Chun it could be SÅng (æ¾) or ChÅng (æ²–) or ZhÅng (é’Ÿ/é˜/é¾). Chong is likely to be ZhuÄng (庄/莊). There is possibility it also could be ZhÅng (é’Ÿ/é˜/é¾) or ZhÄng (ç« ) or Zhòng (仲) or ChÄng (昌).
You said your mother in law’s surname could by Tang. If that is so the surname could be Dèng (鄧/邓) unless she a Fujian, then the surname could be Dǒng (董).
As you may well know, Chinese have their surname at the beginning. I heard of a man who refused to go on a holiday to United States (even though booking had been done and paid for) just because he refused to put his surname last in the visa application at the US Embassy here.
By the way Alex, are you searching for your husband’s family or are you searching for the genealogical lineage of your husband? If it is the former and unless you are trying to locate whatever relatives that your husband may still have in his ancestral village, I would think that this forum would hardly be the place to do so. As to his surname and ancestral village, are you not able to locate and visit one of your husband’s ancestor grave and have a look at the tombstone?
I hope I do not add on more confusion to your search.
Philip
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Post by philiptancl on Feb 4, 2009 8:54:17 GMT -5
Hi Alex/June, After posting my reply to your posting, I read your posting in SiYi Local Guide where you wrote this: For the benefit of my children and grandchildren I could think of nothing more marvelous than having their lineage. June In this connection I would like to share with you the contents of the email that my son wrote to Henry which may reflect the sentiments of your children and your grandchildren. The email read as follows: " Dear Mr. Tom,
First of all, I would like to apologize for my tardiness in writing this email. Although I know it s a poor excuse, I have been extremely busy with my semester and I had much to do for my examinations during the time I received your email. I hope the news that I am indeed in possession of the books that you desire, makes up for the delay in my response to your kind email. It would be my pleasure to hand over this book for your use.
I would also like to take this opportunity to express my admiration and gratitude of your work in the study of genealogy. As a third generation, Chinese migrant in a foreign country, I have long wondered about my roots and where indeed do I lie in the grand history of the Chinese race? How did I get to where I am today? In fact my mind abound with thoughts based on the simple quesion of "Where did I come from?" It is through the hard work of men and women like you that we, the younger generation of the world owe a debt of gratitude. In the words of Pulitzer Prize winner Alex Haley, a prominent African American historical novelist, "In every conceivable manner, the family is link to our past, bridge to our future". If this is so, then you and others like you sir, have given us a bridge to our future.
In the past two years, I have often had discussions and been enlightened by my father about my past. Many hours have been spent with me being enthralled by the tales of how the "Tan" family came to exist in China, the tales of how my ancestral home came to be named and indeed how as a tribe the Tan has spread all over the world. The knowledge that I do indeed have a history and am preceded with generations of kinsmen leaving their footprint in the sands of time, leaves me with a sense of pride that I am looking forward to pass on in the event that I have children of my own or nephews and nieces. As such, it delighted me when my father told me about a distant (albeit indirectly linked) "uncle" I have in the United States that share his own passion. With your kindself, adding much to my father's knowledge of genealogy, the tales that I have been hearing from my father has become richer and deeper. I thank you sir for teaching my father so much and aiding him in his quest for tracing our genealogy. As a son, it brings me great joy to see my father's passion expanded and as a grandson in the sands of time, it encourages me to travel the bridge of history into the future.
Once again, I thank you for all that you have done and it would be my honor to present you with the Hakka Chinese book as my meager contribution to your work.
Yours Sincerely, Adrian Tan"
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Post by xuangxing on Feb 5, 2009 2:32:13 GMT -5
I shall be forwarding the next chart to Xuangxing to post. This chart is from Mǐn Gōng Zhōu (闵公周,61,53,20) to Chén Shí Gōng (陈实公,89,81,48,1), the Progenitor of Yǐng Chuān (潁川) Line of Chén (陈/陳). Also indicated are the other surnames originating from descendants of Shùn Dì (舜帝). Ah Gin’s surname Zhēn (甄) is one of them. I have yet to discover the actual lineage connection Zhēn (甄). Philip's next chart is:
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June
Member
Posts: 70
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Post by June on Feb 5, 2009 2:41:04 GMT -5
Hello Philip
Thank you for the replies (By the way my name is June although I could not use this as someone already had it so I used Alex which is one of my middle names).
I find it hard to believe that you are a novice and it gives me hope that I will at some stage be able to understand more than I do. I have been reading through your postings so that I can try and understand where we might come.
I believe that my husband speaks SiYi because of what people said when we were in Hong Kong and also what they said when we were in Jiangmen, of course somehow I need to be able to prove this.
I have my husband's name in Chinese characters as well as those of his parents however I do not know how to post them to the list so you can see them.
My interest is not so much finding relatives who may be alive now (although that would be excellent), but is more a case of letting my children and grandchildren learn about their Chinese heritage in the same way as they have learned about their English heritage - I am an avid genealogist and have traced some of my English ancestors back to the early 1600.
Once again thanks to you and everyone else who has helped me.
June
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Post by philiptancl on Feb 5, 2009 8:05:54 GMT -5
Hi June, If I do not appear to be a novice in Chinese genealogy, then credit must go to my Sifu, Henry Tom. He is the one who gives me all the encouragement, his generosity, push and above all his invaluable advice and guidance. If for nothing else in this SiYi Forum, I have found a very good and true friend in Henry. If you have followed my postings elsewhere you would already known that I, like Henry both born as oversea Chinese, do not know how to read and write Chinese. Whilst all the jiapu, zupu or zongpu we have are all in Chinese, that by itself does not prove too much of an obstacle to us. Of course Henry, being a pioneer (in the sense of being illiterate in Chinese wanting to study his Chinese genealogy lineage knowing only English), had a much more difficult time. I have the benefit of his experience and knowledge to guide me by. If you are just starting out on Chinese genealogy, I am sure Henry (without me asking him first) and I (within my very limited capacity) will be willing to guide you along in whatever way we can. At this stage, I might as well let you in onto a secret I have and which is also a belief I held since my school days: that is, one must be willing to share the knowledge we gain with others. It is by sharing that we gain greater and deeper knowledge ourselves. I have been doing this throughout the forty years of my professional life and, since the past four months, am now trying to do so in this forum. Of course at times you come across people who only take but never give, even when they could and should. That by itself should not stray one away from ones own belief on humankind. As you already know your husband's name in Chinese character and is just a matter of writing them out in digital form, this is the least of the problem. I will write you a personal message in this forum giving my email and fax number. Writing the characters digitally can be done in no time for the three characters. However if you already can recognize the strokes on how they are written (not those normally written by one well verse in Chinese writing), you should really try writing out the strokes in this free website: www.nciku.com. It will not only provide you the character for you to copy out digitally but when you do a search on a character, it will gives you the pinyin, hear the word as it should be spoken, the various meanings, the composition of the various subparts of the character and the order that the strokes should be written. If you are an avid genealogist and have traced some of my English ancestors, I am quite certain that your adventure on your husband Chinese ancestors even more interesting. Welcome abroad. Philip
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June
Member
Posts: 70
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Post by June on Feb 5, 2009 15:30:12 GMT -5
Whilst doing my English genealogy I have been helped by many people and in turn I have done my best to help as many people as possible.
At the moment I am a beginner in Chinese genealogy so unfortunately for you kind people I have to keep asking questions. I hope though that as I learn more I will be in a position to help other people.
Unfortunately with my limited knowledge I have to keep asking questions but your information is so helpful that when I read things I then go searching on the internet to see what I can find. This often leads to me coming back and asking for further information.
Many thanks to you and Henry and Al for all the help you have given me.
June
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Post by Henry on Feb 5, 2009 17:10:31 GMT -5
June,
Philip Tan, my good friend & colleague, is as you might imagine a wonderful person who gives me far more credit than I deserve. Philip is an amazing guy, who is like a sponge that just soaks up all the Chinese genealogy near him. He is also a very generous person who is more than willing to share his knowledge and resources. the SiYi Forum is indeed fortunate to have such a person as a member.
No problem, ask all you want - I know that Philip and I will try to answer your questions share what we know with you.
Henry
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Post by philiptancl on Feb 24, 2009 22:45:03 GMT -5
The next posting for Chen/Tan/Chan/Chin (陈/陳) Clan thread would be the lineage from Chen Shi to Chen Hui and his seven sons requested by Xuangxing in his posting at Re: Common Ancestor with Surname Chen (陈/陳) « Reply #22 on Nov 24, 2008, 3:47pm » siyigenealogy.proboards28.com/index.cgi?board=names&action=display&thread=752&page=2Although you have given me lineage charts based on the three sets of zupu that you have, I do not know how useful they will be for me. As you will recall I have in my earlier posting indicated that my strategy is for someone " to post in this forum the Chen lineage from the first Chen down to Chen Hui and his seven sons, and if others could add on and post the lineage down from the seven brothers down to themselves; hopefully if enough momentum is generated, I would be able to find my grandfather's name in one of these lineages". I will have to scrutinise the charts to see whether my grandfather's name appears in any of them. I had just emailed Xuangxing for the posting. As there are many other Chen branches originating from Chen Shi, I shall be posting only those branches which I think are of interest to this Forum. I propose to post each branch one at a time.
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