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Post by douglaslam on Oct 24, 2009 4:58:42 GMT -5
www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/nyregion/22chinese.htmlThe sentiments expressed in this article also ring true in Australia or any well established overseas Chinese communities. It is an unstoppable tidal wave. Few people could see its coming. From my personal experience in Sydney, I could see how this situation emerged over the decades. At the time of my arrival, Oriental faces were rare outside of Chinatown. Everyone you met on the streets appeared familiar. Cantonese was the common dialect amongst the various groups from the Pearl Delta. The Chinese population was static because of the White Australia Policy was still in force. The Chinese had to wait fifteen years to qualify for naturalisation. The dismantling of the Policy in the early '70s saw a trickle of Asian migrants. It was still difficult for non-Europeans to settle here. Then in 1975, there was a general amnesty for over-stayers and illegal immigrants. Chinese, mostly from Hong Kong figured prominently in the amnesty. This was followed by another amnesty about three years later, a so-called Regularisation of Status Program, saw Chinatown flourished. New restaurants and shops sprung up. Cinemas, bookshops, travel agents started to appear. Of course, there were all Cantonese speakers. In tandem with family reunion, more and more new arrivals came daily. Then it was the Vietnamese. The boat people and refugees were mainly ethnic Chinese. They were multi-lingual, Cantonese was no problem to them. They blended in well. The next wave was also Chinese from HK. It was during the protracted negotiations between Beijing and London over the returning of HK to China, saw the rush of young professionals and middle class voted with their feet and came to Australia. Cantonese prevailed. The opening up of China and freedom to travel resulted in tens of thousands of Chinese students from the mainland coming to study in Australia. The turning point was June 6, 1989 Tiananmen Square Massacre. The then Prime Minister Bob Hawke granted them the right of abode. In one swift stroke, tens of thousands of mainland Chinese gained permanent residence. The number mushroomed as they, too, brought out family members. They were Mandarin speakers Now, Chinese student numbers in excess of 100,000 are studying in Australia. More Mandarin speakers. It is no wonder that Cantonese got drowned out.
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Post by geoff on Oct 24, 2009 14:59:18 GMT -5
Hello Douglas,
When I attempted to learn chinese at Tech in mid 1970's, mandarin was the dialect being taught. I didn't continue with the study for 2 reasons.......couldn't practise with anyone as Cantonese was spoken in Sydney............totally couldn't relate to the characters & sounds of the language.
I agree with your statement "Oriental faces were rare outside of Chinatown". Dad had a business in the suburb of Sydney & we were the only Aussie chinese family in the suburb or school, even to mid 1970's.
"The Chinese had to wait fifteen years to qualify for naturalisation". Was that the case during your time?
When did Asian fee paying students commence at UNSW?
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Post by Ah Gin on Oct 24, 2009 16:12:24 GMT -5
Douglas and Geoff,
Good observation. In San Francisco Chinatown, Hoisanwa used to be the only dialect spoken, that was till the 1980s, when Cantonese more or less became the main lingo spoken. I was tld that if you don't speak Hoisanwa in those days, you don't shop in Chinatown. Now, especially in the Chinatown in the suburb, increasingly Mandarin is spoken. Back at Hoiping (or is it Kaiping?) I noticed that in restaurants, the young ones used Mandarin between themselves. Mind you, I think those young ones were from "other States" (of Quangdong). At village level, we spoke Hoisanwa, although Cantonese was also spoken.
Is it inevitable that Mandarin will take over? Perhaps in another 20 years, as the yonger ones use Mandarin more and more. It will be a sad day though, as I like the sound of dialacts.
Regards, Ah Gin
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Post by douglaslam on Oct 25, 2009 1:24:02 GMT -5
Hi Ah Gin and Geoff,
Yes, back in the '60s, I used to see the same familiar faces in Dixon St. and Campbell St. (our Chinatown). I may not know their names but I recognised the faces, and could tell their origin by their Cantonese accent The business houses also knew each other. Alas, no more, that closeness is gone forever.
Old NY hand like Henry would surely remember the days when Hoisanwa ruled. Not only Cantonese get swamped, the colourful lingo unique to each overseas Chinese community is also dead and buried. Remember the telephone was called "harm sin"? And it took me a while and some help to decipher what my grandfather in his dementia state was referring when he kept on asking aboutSalthingyer City in our dialect. Salthingyer City is of course Vancouver to the old timers. Similar story of the demise of an unique sub-culture is playing out in Australia. The Chinese lexicon born of necessity orspontaneity is disappearing. Even those HK Chinese who arrived in the late '70s and early '80s adapted to the local brand of Cantonese such as referring to ten thousand as " sup chin". Now, no more.
The advent of VCR and popularity of HK TV dramas I think had a lot to do with the demise. Now, with satellite TV and internet, the process is hasten by instantaneous communication and globalisation. This rich sub-culture passed to us is forgotten. I am particularly upset by the newcomers who changed Sydney's long accepted name in Chinese to something else completely alien to me. It doesn't sound right,I refuse to use it. It is disrespect to our forebears.
Geoff,I was on a student visa, I think I was granted my PR in 1972, and almost immediately took out Aussie citizenship because I was a legal alien in the previous years. Those years counted. By the '70s, the qualifying period was reduced to five years. BTW my naturalisation cert. is the size of a tea towel and has the Queen's picture on it. I had to swear allegiance to HM the Queen.
UNSW celebrates its 50th anniversary this year. I think there were always overseas Asian students there, in the early years some came under the Colombo Plan. When Labor came into power in 1972, it abolished tuition fees. This was extended to overseas students as well. What a gift!!
Douglas
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Post by geoff on Oct 25, 2009 4:57:49 GMT -5
Douglas,
Do you have any comments to my emails? Private rely please.
So you believe Chinese in Sydney had a uniqueness about them? Perhaps something that is being washed over by the recent arrivals from overseas? I also believe that Sydney Chinatown has changed. I can't pinpoint the subtleties of the chinese spoken language in Sydney but I can observe the different mannerisms of the recent arrivals.
Geoff
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Post by helen on Oct 25, 2009 13:03:34 GMT -5
The new migrants have no idea of the trials and tribulations that our forebears went through. Remember they are Post Mao babies - their parents were forced into the Communist systems - as maybe children/teens. Only the grandparent's era will remember - and that is the era we have become stuck in. We haiquo still do the things that have been passed on to is from the generations pre-Japanese war and post Japanese war. As they say - we are more Chinese than the Chinese. One thing I regret losing when my M in Law passed away.. The Chinese Calendar. How she guided us to what we had to do and when. Like her chosen vegetarian days, 3 day in a month (ir was it a fortnight) . And the Bai Sarn days - This weekend, if you had forgotten.
We still speak Cantonese in our women's group - well broken Chinese - lol - with our parent's accents. I can still recognise a Zengcheng person by their accent - and I swear I can tell a "local" Chinese from the new comers.
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Post by geoff on Oct 25, 2009 15:00:11 GMT -5
Hello Helen,
Yes, I've heard your comment "we (the locals) are more Chinese than the Chinese (in China today) " often in Sydney. We can't help that we've inherited some of the traditions of China from our grandparent's era. How can one completely forget one's roots? Some try to but most have memories of their life in China or it's carried down thru oral family history.
In Australia, for the past 20 years, we've been encouraged to openly display our heritage thru "multiculturalism". "Cemetery day" is a tradition that's still observed by some but lost to many (myself included). Thanks for reminding me about vegetarian day. We must hold onto some traditions otherwise everyday life will be the same.....a repeat of the previous day.
You say you speak in broken chinese. I can't speak any. I don't let it concern me nor ashamed that I didn't attempt more to learn it. We must use our strengths to their best advantage.
Geoff
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Post by douglaslam on Oct 25, 2009 21:04:03 GMT -5
Hi Helen,
I think your mother-in-law was a lay Buddhist. Lay Buddhists make a token abstention from eating meat on the first and fifteenth day of each month. I do not keep calendars that don't show lunar dates. My birthday for example, is always celebrated on the lunar calendar date.
Douglas
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Post by helen on Oct 26, 2009 23:41:15 GMT -5
Chung Yeung - Autumn Chinese All Souls' Day - Was this weekend. We will be going late this year, was waiting for my husband to return from China www.discoverhongkong.com/eng/events/festival-chung-yeung.htmlAnd thanks for the information Douglas on my late M in Law's Vegetarian Days. The food is nice, for a change.
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Post by douglaslam on Oct 27, 2009 5:58:41 GMT -5
I just want to make one correction. That gibberish Salthingyer was meant to be Salt H2O. Somehow whenever I try to type H2O in this Forum, it comes up hingyer. It mystifies me.
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Post by douglaslam on Dec 8, 2009 0:19:06 GMT -5
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Post by mugenpower168 on Jun 24, 2010 1:47:50 GMT -5
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Post by Doug 周 on Jul 26, 2010 13:37:51 GMT -5
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Post by lwong on Aug 10, 2010 14:33:01 GMT -5
I remember hearing Hoisanwa up until the 1980's when Cantonese took over in Boston's Chinatown. I was a little kid and had no idea why one day the new butcher who was cutting our cha-se-ew started laughing. Around the same time in 6th grade at my suburban school I met a newly immigrated friend from HK who advised me to speak Cantonese. I asked her why and she said, "Because Hoisanwa is a peasant dialect." I was so offended and puzzled and sadly a bit ashamed. Then to make matters worse, my parents signed me up for Chinese language lessons, Cantonese language lessons to be exact. It was pure torture.
It took me a while to shake off those feelings. Having members of the family doing great things didn't really help. I don't what helped or when it helped, but now I'm proud of my heritage and of my family dialect. I don't mask the fact that I'm a Hoisanwa speaking jook-sing. I get along better with the old timers than with anyone else. This summer I went with my husband to his MIT reunion and found a Hoisanwa speaking jook-sing classmate. I was so elated that I started to feel like the old timers in my youth who'd get excited meeting someone from their village.
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jing
Member
Posts: 59
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Post by jing on Aug 12, 2010 20:06:30 GMT -5
Hi All, Don't worry about Cantonese dying. It is alive and well ! In June, I traveled with a group of 16 from the SF Bayarea on a trip to see historic and scenic sights in China that native chinese visit ! You guessed - the first 3 days were English and the next 14 days was in Cantonese. Being an ABC, I went into survival mod and haven't spoken so much Cantonese since I don't know when... Luckily, we were given the pinyin and before leaving home, did some google and Nicku.com search and had some idea of what we were seeing. Our other saving grace were fellow travelers who were multilingual: in Cantonese, Mandarin, English, and a grandma who spoke Hoisanwa. In HK, we bargained at night market, but hey, they can tell you are an English speaker just by looking at your dress code... of course going into the rural villages in southern China, you would speak the home dialect. It's all about how you treat each other and be able to communicate with others.
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