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Post by FayChee on Nov 28, 2013 10:05:45 GMT -5
Hi Douglas, You have me on the edge of my seat. You are having so much adventure there and good food too. Answers for Lolly are soon to come.....reminds me of the great adventure when you found my tiny little village....I am just as excited.
I am glad to hear of Dr. Sun Yat-Sen's historical village and a place that I would also like to visit.
Tyuti: Thank you for the link that explains my dialect. I am Yue Chinese and my sub dialect is Siyi. Thank you!
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Post by lachinatown on Nov 28, 2013 11:51:21 GMT -5
Map of 翠亨村, Chui Hang, Cui Heng Cun, Zhongshan, Guangdong, China in relation to Sam Heung, Sanxiang (Three Villages) 三乡 and TaanJau, Tanzhou (坦州), all north of Macau. Douglas, hope you took pictures of the bonsai.
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Post by lolly on Nov 28, 2013 16:49:46 GMT -5
Douglas, I just knew I should have checked online one more time before I went to bed last night! You and your "brains trust" are both absolute treasures. I do hope Ming's sore throat is much better.
I have very much enjoyed reading about the new born babe reception, and also Dr Sun's village and background. Andrew would probably have been in Melbourne in 1904, and may well have joined the Masonic Society there before later transferring to Sydney. I was given some contact names and numbers while I was at the Gum San Chinese Heritage Museum in Ararat this week that might help me follow up any records of that possibility.
I am off to my regular Friday morning "informal" tai chi class now ..... it may help calm my excitement a little!
Thanks again lachinatown for the map updates. Lolly
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Post by douglaslam on Nov 29, 2013 5:06:06 GMT -5
Fay Chee, I can't claim credit for discovering your village. It was members like laohuaqiao who did the hard yards in identifying it, and Henry's nephew Shi Cheng and the driver who made it all happened. My party was just passengers for the ride.
I do hope I could accompany you and anyone else interested to Sun Yat-sen's Residence and Memorial one day. There are other sites dedicated to the great man in our county all worthy of a visit.
Now, to lolly. This is your day, a very special day. I don't know where to start : I called ahead of our visit while we were having our morning meal. Then,we hopped on a three-wheel motorised transport to get to Sing Sze. The village official warmly welcomed us to his office , then produced the result of his labour, a very detailed family tree pertaining to Andrew. There are minor discrepancies which I hope you could reconcile.
In a beautifully hand-copied record from a 1933 genealogy book, it starts from the 11th. generation of the good people settling in the then Jeung Kok. Your great grandfather Chuck Fay is the 14th. gen. Chuck Fay had four sons, Andrew, Hung Pint being the oldest. I am not sure if there were daughters or not. BTW Andrew was never meant to be called Barn 板, to our Chinese literate friends, it is a very poor choice of word. The only 板 I knew of is the great painter 郑板桥.
Chuck Fay took Andrew with him to Australia in 1900 ( can you confirm that?)Chuck Fay's wife's name does not match up with what you have told us. It mentions Andrew was born in 1881, and had a wife or betrothed to a young woman? More confusion and discrepancy. If Andrew was born in 1881,and died in 1958, surely he was older than 71 yeras of age on his passing.
Then it is to your father, the oldest and only son on record. You stated he is 88 years of age. The record says he was born in the 5th. year of the republic, which translates to 1916, out by ten years. The year could have been the official's own deduction. The lunar birthday should equate to mid to late June. Your father was given a Chinese name 天錫 (Tin Shek.) From 1933 the last entry in the record,nothing more was heard of from Australia.
Chuck Fay's other three sons had no descendants left in the village. In fact there is no knowing the whereabouts of them all.
Your family link to the village had had to go back to Chuck Fay's grandfather. He had three sons, Chuck Fay(14th. gen.) was from the second son. From the third son to the present(17th. gen.)your generation, there are three sons. They all did well, and retired I believe.
Only the youngest son 錦仕Gum See GS) is living in the village. He suffered a mild sttoke. His other brothers are living in Shekki, which I have often made reference to.His wife, only in his early 50s, is running a garment factory. I was given her number to call, and we met up at the office before going out for lunch.
The village official showed Andrew's photo to GS's family not saying a thing. They all saw a certain likeness to family members. The official wants to keep Andrew and your photo for the file of a successful search. It isn't just people from overseas who wanted to know about their link to China. In the past children, especially girls were given away to far provinces, to avoid starvation. Some of these girls and boys, now in their declining years wanted to know their true selves. They have no clues except a brief description of the environment, the hills, the streams and such to work on. One such reunion, had two sisters united, each a mirror image of the other. A very heart warming story.
The likely place where Andrew had lived was destroyed in a typhoon, and is now rebuilt and occupied by a family unrelated to you. GS's grandfather had a shop and residence in a narrow laneway, which is over a hundred years old, unoccupied and in decay.
I had taken many photos to be uploaded next month. I try to make everything as plain and simple as I can to you. There are many questions I now want to ask but did not do so back in Sing Sze. Oh well, that would have to wait until you and your hubby's visit in the near future.
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Post by lolly on Nov 29, 2013 7:41:00 GMT -5
Douglas, you have most certainly made this a very special day for me. I can't wait to call my uncle tomorrow to make sure he has read all your posts. You have discovered so much more than I could have dreamed of learning, and my father having a chinese name is fantastic. I wonder if he ever knew that. Now, as to the discrepancies, I think I can resolve some of those. My father, Andrew Wrixon Pang, was the third child and first born son to Andrew Hung Pint. He was born in May 1916 and died in 1993 aged 76. He suffered a stroke when he was 50 but managed to overcome the residual disabilities and live a very full life for the next 26 years. The 88 year old surviving son is my Uncle Denis (the seventh child and second born son). There were nine children born in all, five daughters and four sons. It was never clearly established when Andrew HP was born. I have re-examined all the documents that I have relating to him, and found one Application for Registration form from 1948 that has a DoB that could be 1881. The rest of the documents including his marriage certificate and death certificate all have varying possible dates. I was not aware that Chuck Fay also came to Australia. The year 1900 as date of arrival for Andrew HP is recorded on some documents. I must see if I can find any records relating to Chuck Fay being here. With the clarifications you have found re Andrew's name, it seems to me that what we read as Hong is probably actually Hung. Deciphering handwriting often needs a few extra clues to get the correct result! I am wondering if Andrew's mother's name, as appears on his marriage certificate, could perhaps be Hung Kan/Lan? Andrew married my grandmother (Aileen Daly, age 16, a second generation Australian of Irish descent) in Melbourne in 1911. As for 1933 being the last entry in the record, that would seem to coincide with when Andrew left Melbourne and his family there, and moved to Sydney. I am absolutely gobsmacked with all you have reported, and cannot even begin to thank you (and your "brains trust" Ming) for all you have done Please let me know if there is anything I can or should be doing as a result of all you have found. Thank you my treasures. Lolly
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Post by douglaslam on Nov 29, 2013 9:04:16 GMT -5
Lolly, one thing I am certain of, we have a positive match. On one page, it says Chuck Fay went to Australia with his son. On another, it makes no mention. As to Andrew Jr.'s birthday,it was April 17. I took it as the fourth lunar month thus mid to late May (which I wrote down as June above.)
Your father was given a Chinese name because it was the custom of the time, which is enjoying a revival, for a lantern be hang in the village hall in the first few days of the lunar new year.It is for the male offspring only. Andrew Sr. would have sent money together with the birth details for the ritual. You grandmother must have fallen for Andrew (age difference) like the proverbial ton of bricks. It took a very brave, committed and true love for a young lass to marry a Chinaman in those days. Families would disown daughters who married Chinese. How well did you know your grandmother?
The attachment from Godfrey Ma is in Mandarin, the official language of China. What is Hong, becomes Hung in Cantonese. So is the name of Jeung Kok. Andrew's mother was a Chan. The information from the genealogy record is very detail, it even records where the deceased were buried.
I was thinking if ever you should visit Sing Sze whence that long and lasting journey down under started, you could present a pennant to the official, thanking him for his efforts. It is inexpensive, and can be seen by all. Ming agreed with my sentiment.
I wish I had made extra copies of Andrew and your photo for GS's family. Even GS's two brothers whom I did not meet, were keenly interested in your presence in spirit and search.
As to the family records now in my custody, should I send or hand them to you in person? Get one of your Chinese-literate friends to translate them for you. I await your instructions.
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Post by FayChee on Nov 29, 2013 9:43:20 GMT -5
Douglas, what a gift to wake up to this wonderful fantastic story! The repercussions of the joy that you bring to our lives will be passed from person to person and generation to generation. We are blessed to have found you.
It would be unthinkable for me to travel to my Village without you, Ming, and Ma Gor to be a part of this great celebration.
Great work Douglas! Can't wait for the pictures!
Fay Chee
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Post by lolly on Nov 29, 2013 20:37:43 GMT -5
Well Douglas, I did not sleep very well last night, so many thoughts and questions buzzing through my head. I spoke briefly to my uncle this morning and his first response was "When are we going to China?" It would be wonderful if that was a real possibility for him, but there are many factors that would need to be overcome before we could seriously consider it. I am looking forward to talking to him again later when he has had time to thoroughly read and digest all that you have written. Likewise with my two sisters. Everyone is so excited.
I would really love to be able to receive the records from you in person. If you could let me know a suitable time after you return to Sydney, we would try to organise a quick trip from Melbourne to meet with you, take you out to dine, and thank you properly! Please let me know if this would be convenient and/or desirable for you. Otherwise .... I guess there is always the mail service.
I did know my grandmother quite well .... or as well as any of us could. She was a very capable and hardworking woman. She was also a woman with many secrets. Unfortunately, she took most of them to her grave. Sadly, she never spoke of Andrew at all to any of us. There was a suggestion that she had theatrical interests. I have often wondered if that is possibly how she and Andrew met. Another avenue to pursue!
Is there an appropriate way/item that I could send to Sing Sze as a token of thanks? I like your suggestion of presenting a pennant in person ..... but I have to be realistic about whether that occasion would ever arise, so maybe there is something I could do in the interim?
Also, I would be happy to print and send any photos of Andrew to GS's family if you think that would be acceptable .... and you have an address.
I won't badger you any more right now. You deserve a well earned rest .... and much congratulations on the success of "our" quest! BTW .... is there a meaning for Tin Shek?
I'm walking on sunshine!! Lolly
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Post by douglaslam on Nov 29, 2013 22:51:21 GMT -5
Fay Chee, if you do have a firm date, I can probably move my leave to fit in with your trip to China. My leave is in early October, 2014. I'd like to meet you in person, and give you a big hug. It is a lot easier for me to meet up with Lolly, she lives just down the road.
Lolly, I would very much like to meet you and anyone one else from the family, and present the family records to you. There is no need to make a trip to Sydney just for this. Come when you are good and ready. I can arrange to have any day of the week off if need be.
天錫 Tin Shek, Tin character means sky or heavenly, Shek is a metal, tin to be exact. Shek is a popular choice for a boy's name. I am not quite sure what Andrew Sr. had in mind for his first son to be. Perhaps laohuaqiao or tyuti1668 can come to our rescue.
The name sometimes reflects the parents' aspiration and hopes for the child. Sometimes,it maybe extracted from a famous poem or verse. Take kung fu dynamo Bruce Lee, his daughter's Chinese name is Ying Heung 凝香. It comes from a line of one of Tang Dynasty's most famous verses 一枝紅艷露凝香. A most beautiful name.
A pennant is highly appropriate if you are there in person, with reporters in tow, to present it. The official showed geniune interest and enthusiam in helping. Two years ago, my party was doing the running around for memeber Christine. The official only gave lip service, did not do so much as calling us to say he couldn;t help us.
There is another thing you can do by taking a collection from family members. Sing Sze's Pang ancestral hall was completely destroyed during the Cultural Revolution. I was shown an artist's impression and blue print of a new hall by the official. The hall is going to cost about A$2mil. in land purchase and building costs. One generous villager from Macau promised almost half of the amount. Smaller donors can all chip in, and their names inscribed for eternity in the donors' roll. I am thinking you can all donate under the name of Pang Hung Pint's descendants from Australia. Food for thought.
You can also add all Pang family members to the genealogy register in the village. Alternatively, you can keep the family records I have now in my custody, and build up from there. It can be traced back to Sing Sze.
I am leaving in a few moments for Shekki, to meet up with a fellow also from Sydney. He is in his 80s, spending much of his retirememnt here in China. We are going to have lunch together. Might do foot massage /reflexology if that's what the fellow fancies. He likes to pay. That's OK by me.
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Post by helen on Nov 30, 2013 0:39:42 GMT -5
Douglas - success again. Lolly is so lucky she came to this board and found you. Well done.
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Post by douglaslam on Dec 1, 2013 7:48:08 GMT -5
Helen.I think it is a two way street in a sense. I am having fun and helping Lolly at the same time.The village official is the kingpin. I knew he could crack this one the momenet he mentioned other villagers now with the given name Hung . Ming and I agreed coming from the same county, speaking the local dialect played a big part. People drop their guard and speak more freely when speaking with strangers in their own tongue. Again, Lolly's distant relative talked very freely with us over lunch in our native dialect. In LTW, Doug Joe's village, similar things happened. I guess, my party is also gaining experience over the last three years.
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Post by lolly on Dec 1, 2013 7:49:44 GMT -5
Lolly echoes that sentiment ..... and still can't believe just how lucky she has been!
I also very much appreciate the input and enthusiasm of the other contributors to my "story". Thank you all.
Looking forward to the continuing progress of Douglas' "Excellent Adventures" .... and eventually the pictures. Lolly.
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Post by douglaslam on Dec 2, 2013 7:30:21 GMT -5
Monday, 2 December, 2013.
I like visitibg markets, so I suggested we should see one of the major open markets in the county. It took one hour to get to Sa Kong 沙 岗 Shagang from our village by #10 bus. There weren't many people because it was not a major market day. The market days are determined by the lunar calendar. And they are designed not to clash with market days in other locations within the district. This has been handed down over the centuries.
A non-market day means there are far fewer people attending, and many stalls and especially the mobile vendors who put their merchandise on the floor are missing. It just does not have the same atmosphere, and rubbing shoulders with your neigbour feel to the place. Nontheless, it was still fascinating to see the goods on display for sale.
At one curio stall, Ma Gor spotted used coffin nails (棺材釘)on sale. Ma Gor knows coffin nails because his calling as a bone picker. The nails are about four or five inches in length. Each one has a sharp end and threads. The asking price was between RMB100 to 130 each. When the going was good, he used to sell them at 20 to 30RMB each . It is a welcomed bonus on each call out. There are only four nails to each coffin. Now,exhumation jobs are getting few and far between because the blanket ban on burial for over twenty years. As a consquence, genuine used coffin nails are getting harder to get, especially the ones extracted from coffins which have been in the ground for long years.
I am keen to learn about the past, especially folk tales and beliefs. I asked many questions on the coffin nail. It is believed coffin nails possess that special quality which can repel evil spirits.Some people like to hang one at the top of the front door frame, while others like to melt it down and shape into a ring or bracelet. Even more sought after are woman's silver hairpins buried with the diseased. Again, the hairpins are melted down and made into pendants for little children for the same reason. Bizarre? No,it is just a cultural thing.
I was never one for rings and chains. I only care for a wristhingych and nothing else. But coffin nails which are made of brass to stop it from rusting, got to the inquisitive nature of me. I might just want to acquire one from Ma Gor. It is also one of those things that one must pay for. Ma Gor now does not let go of his small collection easily. I went to his place and had a look at them. I must do so again to take a photo for all to see.
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Post by FayChee on Dec 2, 2013 9:08:37 GMT -5
Hi Douglas, Your description of the brass coffin screws got my curiosity up and I googled it, but only got one 'hit'. Does the picture below look like the coffin screws? These are only 3 inches long and are probably not Chinese origin.... I hope you post a picture of Ma Gor's collection. When I have a firm date for travel, you will be the first to know. Fay Chee
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Post by douglaslam on Dec 3, 2013 9:41:29 GMT -5
Fay Chee, the screws above, which are more apt than nails, do look like the ones I was shown except for the head bit. Burial jades are also sought after as items to ward off evil spirit and bad luck. As I mentioned last year, Ma Gor once uncovered what could have been Ming Dynasty porcelain, and let go of them too cheaply. People take advantage of his lack of education and appreciation of finer things. Its good to see you in a positive mood to travel. It is a very different world here. Just maintain an open mind, not judgemental, then you're in for a good time.
Tuesday, December 3, 2013
It is brain-wracking to think of a place to visit for a day trip. Somebody suggested Xinhui (新会)which is part of Sze Yup. I immediately had in mind the home of Leung Kai Chiu or Liang Qichao 梁啓超.
Leung was a significant and influential figure in China's modern history. He still is a person I admire for his bold initiatives to pull China back from the abyss. Google his name or hundred days reform, you'll find plenty to look at.
Leung was well-travelled for a man of his era. In 1900, he was on a speaking tour in Australia to spruik his case for a constitutional monarchy. Member Brad Powe's great grandfather was probably amongst his supporters because he was presented with a commemorative fan.
WE got to the main bus terminus for a direct bus service to Xinhui. The fare was RMB32+2 for compulsory insurance. It took over an hour, much of it on expressways. From the bus interchange in Xinhui, I suggested we should head straight for Leung's old home before we think about lunch. It is another fast bus ride for about 20 mins.or so before we got to Leung's home village. I found myself less dependedent on Ming's help once we are out of our county.
I would like elaborate my visit with photos later on. One thing is certain, it has been a great learning experience for me on Leung, his time, achievements, and family. I would recommend it to all visitors to this part of China.
While on the bus to Xinhui, I heard Toishanese spoken by the driver and his conductor. I was so tempted to carry on to Hoiping instead. I have fond memories of times spent in the town.
Coming home took much, much longer. We caught a bus from Leung's village to Jiangmen 江门. I thought that would speed up our trip home because Jiangmen is much closer to our county then Xinhui.Wrong. From Jiangmen, the bus service only goes to Xiaolan小榄. Going to Xiaolan, we had to go past Guzhen古镇. Guzhen is famous for its electric lighting industry. For miles, both sides of the road are shop after shop of light fixtures. Because of major road building, it was bad traffic all the way.
I went to Xiaolan for the chrysanthemum Festival at about the same time last year. Xiaolan is famous for its lock and security safe manufacturing. Individual township and provincial centres are each building up a reputation in a single industry. My own town Dachong大涌 is called the Redwood Furniture Manufacturing Capital of China. It is a reputation I am not comfortable with because much of the timber I suspect is from old growth forests logged illegally in counties like Laos, Burma, Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam and even from Africa. Many families from my village who got in the act early in furniture manufacturing, all became multi-millionaires.
Thirty years ago or so, the towns would be pitch-black after dark. Now,it is one long, continuous line of bright lights, industry, business, and residence. The degree of urbanisation is staggering. I would never have thought it possible.
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