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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 15:50:24 GMT -5
msen, I stopped by the Hok Shan Association in New York City Chinatown last week. They were not familiar with English translation of surnames, so they couldn't confirm whether Sen is Sin/Xian 冼 or not. In regards to Sin/Xian 冼 surname, they said it is not a very common surname in Hol Shan and over the years, meaning the last 30or 40 years, they knew of only one person with that name. I did see on a plaque on the office wall, listing donations to the association, one person with that surname. Hok Shan Association bought a plot of land in Cypress Hills Cemetery, which you have mentioned, for their members. The association keeps a list of name of deceased buried within the plot, but they were not able to find anyone with Sen or Sin/Xian 冼. But, the list is handwritten and writings being worn out over the years the names are not very legible. The Consolidated Chinese Benevolence Association (CCBA) also bought land in the same cemetery. It is also possible that your father was buried within CCBA's plot of land. The third possibility is your father grave site was bought directly from the cemetery, rather than from the associations. I don't know if Cypress Hills has compiled a complete listing of the names of the buried. It's worthwhile inquiring with the cemetery. In any case, by the time the weather gets warmer and you still have not made any progress obtaining information from vital records from NYC, I'll ride my bicycle over to the cemetery and check out the two associations' sites. Finally, in the past the Hok Shan people in New York were known to be restauranteurs. I have some friends whose ancestors came from Hok Shan and their parents were inevitably in the restaurant business. Years ago, in NYC Chinatown there was a chain of restaurants with the word "Hop" in their names, the owners and staff were from Hok Shan. There is still a few of them in Chinatown. Hop 合 has the meaning together, to join, to fit. Your father is the the first case that I know of who came from Hok Shan and who might have worked in a Chinese laundry. I asked about that at the Hok Shan Association and they agreed, they knew of no one from Hok Shan in the laundry business. There may not be any significance in this, but I thought I'd mention it.
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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 15:55:05 GMT -5
For anyone following this topic (finding grave and Ancestral village of Chuck Sen), I was able to acquire the Chinese Exclusion Act Immigration Files on Choy Sen, born in 1869, who was head of household in the 1920 US Census that also listed 2 boarders, Toi Sen and Chuch Sen. I cut and paste the information that I thought was relevent to finding the Chinese characters for 'Sen', and a possible Ancestral village of which there are 3 listed at different times (Peung Leung, Hok Shan District; Ping Leung, Hok Shan District; and Ping Ning Village, S.N. District). There was no mention of a Chuck Sen, but a Yee Sen and Lem Sen of Brooklyn NY, were listed as people who owed him money. Fay Chee siyigenealogy.proboards.com/attachment/download/287
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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 15:56:34 GMT -5
Fay Chee & msen, Per my Reply #29, the surname Sen is 冼 (as confirmed by the document posted) which in Cantonese sounds like 'seen" and closely approximates the original Sien that later morphed to Sen. This is not a very common surname. As to the village Peung Leung I believe it may be Pinglian/Pihng Lihn, 平连村, GPS: 22.560915,112.86973. twoupman houseofchinn.com
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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 16:08:24 GMT -5
On this website, which discusses the origins of families in Hok Shan/Heshan, tieba.baidu.com/p/221833596 it mentions 平岭冼氏 Sin/Xian of Pingling.
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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 16:10:34 GMT -5
Here's a little more information that came today: Mara's father's cousin, Jimmy Sien, who had the same grandmother as her father, was named Sik Hong Sien. He was born in 1905, and parents names were Quong Young Sien and Wong Mae (maiden name). If they came from the same Village as Choy Sen (Pingling or Pinglian), how can we see if that Village has any Sien families? I tried to search several Village Databases online, but to no avail. Are there any other resources we are missing? Thanks.............Fay Chee
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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 16:12:08 GMT -5
Fay Chee & msen, Subsequent to Laohuaqiao’s mention of Pingling (平岭) I searched for other Sin (冼) villages in Heshan but it returned only one village called Pingdiling (平地岭) (see this site: baike.baidu.com/view/2687894.htm). This village was established in 1268 during the Southern Song Dynasty when the Sin, Yuan and Li clans migrated south from Zhujixiang (珠玑巷) (for more information please see: houseofchinn.com/Zhujixiang.html) in northern Guangdong Province via Chonghua village in Xinhui (新会冲花村). Pingdiling (平地岭) which means “level land ridge” was named such as its topography referred to the village sitting atop a hill as in Shandingcun (山顶村). It was later shortened to Pingling (平岭) to mean a “level ridge” and conjures up a mesa type landscape. It is a fairly large village with a population of 3800 people in 1998. It appears that Sin Choih’s (冼才) village of Peung Leung referred to in the previously posted government document by Fay Chee is most likely to be Pingling (平岭) rather than the Pinglian (平连) as I suggested and the GPS is 22.595549, 112.966475. If you select the Satellite image option you will see a large hill where the village is located. This village is located about 9km east of the municipality of Gonghezhen (共和镇) and is at the border with Xinhui County (新会区). twoupman houseofchinn.com
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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 16:12:55 GMT -5
I think the most famous person in recent history with the surname Sen/Sin/Xian is Xian Xinghai, a well-known Chinese composer of the early 20th century. His ancestors were from Panyu which is adjacent to Hok Shan/Heshan. From wiki, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_Xinghai Among his famous works are: music for the "March of the Volunteers" which became the national anthem of the People's Republic, and "Ode to the Yellow River"
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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 16:13:33 GMT -5
Nice one laohuaqiao. Fay Chee, March of the Volunteers was a song rallying the people to fight the Japanese. It is a most stirring number. China adopted it as its national anthem, I think, as late as the 1970s. The composer was hounded to an early grave during the Cultural Revolution. You must have heard it many, many times during medal ceremonies in the Olympic Games. I first heard of it back when I was a small boy in China. So too, is this very majestic march. This is the same song which was sung in the Beijing Olympics in 2008. There was controversy because the young singer was miming. It is a popular propaganda piece. I like it. Again, it was brought to my attention when I was in China in the early 1950s. Thanks to the www. I can now listen to it anytime I want to. I don't like the bit that heaping praise on Mao. Douglas
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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 16:14:46 GMT -5
msen and Fay Chee, My previous posting’s (#50) referenced website mentioned the Sin clan (冼氏) migrated south from Xhujixiang (珠玑巷) in 1268. Out of curiosity I looked through my collection of clan surnames posted in Zhujixiang (see houseofchinn.com/Zhujixiang.html) and found the point of origin was Guangzhou (广州) in Guangdong Province (广东省) and the hall name is Nanhaitang (南海堂). This is quite a surprise because Guangzhou is in the south which somehow contradicts the notion of the southward migration. Something is amiss or there is likely a logical explanation. Perhaps this can be clarified should Fay Chee be able to get a copy of the zupu from your ancestral village during her visit to Kaiping this year. Heshan is not far away and there is a highway linking the two counties as well as Taishan county. Further, I did a search on the Sin (冼) surname and found it originated in the area of Foshan (佛山), Nanhai (南海) and Panyu (番禺) which is basically in the Guangzhou area. It came from the Hao (豪) clan of the Gaoliang (高凉) minority group. This corroborates the location indicated by the Zhujixiang surnames billboard. Another very interesting fact is that the original character was written as 沈 (now pronounced as Sam in Cantonese) and later changed to 洗 (now pronounced as Sai in Cantonese) with other variations like 姺 and 侁 which are not normally found today. Later it was simplified to 冼 and has remained so as a surname character only. twoupman houseofchinn.com
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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 16:15:43 GMT -5
twoupman, In regards to the origin of the Sen/Sin/Xian surname, there is suggestion that the Heshan Xian zupu, written during the Manchu emperor Guangxu era in 1887 is the source of confusion. According to this article on Heshan government's website, waishi.heshan.gov.cn/Article/ShowArticle.asp?ArticleID=327 , the writer questioned the accuracy of the zupu. Basically, the zupu claimed the Xians are descendants of the 10th son of the Emperor Wen of Zhou Dynasty, about 3100 years ago, effectively made them Han people. Whereas, the article said Xians was a well-known clan among the Baiyue people in the south as early as 1600 years ago. The most famous personality was lady Sinn, whom I mentioned in an earlier post. There were economic and social advantages of being labeled a Han rather than a member of the minority group. These advantages were the motivation behind the zupu's claims. When I get a chance, I'll give more details of the article.
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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 16:16:27 GMT -5
laohuaqiao, Thanks for the headsup as I also read similar articles but I was skeptical about the 3000+ years origin but believe the Baiyue origin is probably more credible (just my hunch). It does not explain why at Zhujixiang the Sin surname showed a Guangzhou origin as it does not correlate with the southward migration concept or this clan actually lived there for a period of time. Any further thoughts? twoupman houseofchinn.com
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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 16:17:10 GMT -5
twoupman, I'm curious about that too. I think we have to confirm first whether the Zhujixiang surname info is based on local records kept during the 1100-1300 migration period or a compilation based on the zupus of clans in the Pearl River delta. msen, We are questioning the origin of the Sen/Sin/Xian, casting doubt on some of the zupus. Your father and Jimmy Sien came from Ping Ling in Hok Shan, that hasn't changed.
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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 16:18:06 GMT -5
From my observation here in Sydney, Australia, Ùþ Xian, Sen family name is prominent amongst the people from Gao Yiu ¸ßÒª, other notable ones are Ha ÏÄ, Choy ²Ì, ChuÖì, and SoÌK family names. I gain this knowledge from my decade working in Chinatown throughout the 1980s. I haven't seen anyone mention the likelihood of Gao Yiu being the starting point of it all. The Gao Yiu people are the only ones amongst the emigrants from Pearl River Delta still engaged in traditional market gardening. They are very united as an entity, have valuable property holdings in Chinatown, built their own temple way back in the 19th. century and has a block of old home units next to the temple as cheap housing for their folks. It is something we can only look on in admiration for their ancestors' foresight. As to Ching Ming and how everyone is trying to outdo each other in gimmickry to offer the dear departed in the afterlife. It really is over the top. I stick to the traditional. I send money to China each year for Ching Ming. The people living in my house perform the rituals on my behalf, as they too are related to me three or four generations back. The big item is one medium roast pig plus the usual gold and silver bars, paper money etc. I don't think there is any those new age gadgets like mobile phones, and ipad. It detracts from the true meaning of Ching Ming. Ching Ming observance is one of those intangible things that define us as a people. Other cultures may look to it as bizarre. So be it. I bet they wish they had something like ours to hold the people together. Let us celebrate and impress on our younger generations to carry on.
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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 16:19:58 GMT -5
...on some American records on ancestry I notice that the Sen is listed as the first name. And other times in the middle as part of the full name.... List of Chinese names gathered by Westerners are alphabetized according to the phonetic spelling by a diverse group of compilers. The only requirement of these listers is the ability of writing the names based on sounds . Westerners are usually ignorant of the surname first standards of Chinese nomenclature. This miscommunication frequently causes given names to be listed as surnames, and vice versa. Another example are groups of names where all the given names are the similar. The listing of Ah Chinn, Ah Gung, Ah Wing are situations where a common Cantonese pronunciation prefix is mistaken to be a given name. Listings of married women will frequently reveal the Western surname of Shee. There will be groupings of names such as Wong Shee, Jan Shee, Lim Shee. The Shee is not the surname, but a name suffix to indicated that person is from the Wong, Jan, or Lim clan. Chinese of the 19th-20th century period had many names. This is what makes recording Chinese names (and the genealogy) difficult. You've mentioned the example of the multiple names of Sun Yet-Sen. So these western American records only hint to the Chinese name. Your family oral history will give you confirmation of the surname and given names.
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Post by FayChee on Jun 9, 2013 16:20:56 GMT -5
Just lost the message I was sending, so again: Received the Death Certificate and it is far from complete but here is the info listed: My father died on July 7th, 1963 in Maimonides Hospital, Brooklyn, NY. He was married, to my mother Barbara, and the residence was 5014 7th Ave, Bklyn, NY. His laundry is listed as a "wet wash" and his birthplace China. Sadly there is no date of birth and he is approximately 65 with no listing for any of his China family. All this blank space tells me that my mother did not know his Chinese parents name nor any family. Now the interesting clue. The funeral info is listed as "Wah Wing Sang Funeral Corp", at 26 Mulberry St. NY and he is buried at the Cypress Hills Cemetery, Brooklyn NY. So this is all that is listed and with Doug's "Lack of" reference comment, I shall continue to search. I hope these few clues could lead to more...I shall call Cypress Hills... msen
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