Choy, Choa, Cai

[seemex]

I have found a potential relative who passed away in Hong Kong in 1937. She was likely Eurasian and went by the name Kot Choy, and Anna Hunter.I have noticed that Choy and Choa appear to be the same character and there were many Choas involved with my family. I have traced a possible link to a "Choa Leep Chee" and have an inscription from his gravestone that I am trying to translate. I know that he was born in 1859 and died in 1909 and I have identified the Chinese charater for the family name, but that's where my abilities end.
  It appears that the name Choy ( Choa ) is not a common name in China (44th ) but is more common in Fujian, Taiwan, and even more so in Hong Kong. My family were born in Hong Kong, but my great grandfather was from England and settled in Foochow in 1865. I have a clipping from the South China Morning Post in 1937 regarding the estate of "Kot Choy" who died at the age of 83, and left $14000. I also have property records from the Hong Kong land registry showing several lots in that name beginning in 1887 and continuing through until 1937. She is listed at times as "Mr" Kot Choy.
  The grave photo that I am attaching is I believe, from Leep Chee Choa. I am hoping that some of the inscription my produce some further clues about my Chinese branch.
Thanks for all help.
Brian Hunter Beesley,
Vancouver, Canada
a

[twoupman]

seemex,

The tombstone is for a gentleman by the name of 蔡风府 Cai Fengfu and not Leep Chee Choa. Surname 蔡 Cai/Chua is common in Fujian, Taiwan, Malaysia and Singapore.


twoupman
houseofchinn.com

[seemex]

I am adding two more photos of the grave, showing the reverse side in English, along with the one I put before


This grave is also listed on gwulo.com under Happy Valley Cemetery section 16a/04/12

16A--/04/12- IHS / In loving memory / of / Choa Leep Chee / born / 21 January 1859 / died / 23 October 1909 / Requiem aeterneum dona ei / domine: et lux perpetua luceat eiChinese characters on both sides and reverse

[twoupman]

seemex,

Made an error in reading the characters. It does say 立志蔡 Lizhi Cai to mean given name Lizhi (your Leep Chee) followed by surname 蔡 Cai. The next character is 公 Gong (gentleman) which I misread as 风 Feng. 府 Fu means residence.

twoupman
houseofchinn.com

[seemex]

Thank you for your help. It's difficult to read the inscription and it seems the characters can have some degree of variance to their interpretation. I'm sure Chinese may not always translate into English words exactly as we might expect.

[seemex]

Jun 30, 2016 12:23:51 GMT -5 seemex said:

I have found a potential relative who passed away in Hong Kong in 1937. She was likely Eurasian and went by the name Kot Choy, and Anna Hunter.I have noticed that Choy and Choa appear to be the same character and there were many Choas involved with my family. I have traced a possible link to a "Choa Leep Chee" and have an inscription from his gravestone that I am trying to translate. I know that he was born in 1859 and died in 1909 and I have identified the Chinese charater for the family name, but that's where my abilities end.
  It appears that the name Choy ( Choa ) is not a common name in China (44th ) but is more common in Fujian, Taiwan, and even more so in Hong Kong. My family were born in Hong Kong, but my great grandfather was from England and settled in Foochow in 1865. I have a clipping from the South China Morning Post in 1937 regarding the estate of "Kot Choy" who died at the age of 83, and left $14000. I also have property records from the Hong Kong land registry showing several lots in that name beginning in 1887 and continuing through until 1937. She is listed at times as "Mr" Kot Choy.
  The grave photo that I am attaching is I believe, from Leep Chee Choa. I am hoping that some of the inscription my produce some further clues about my Chinese branch.
Thanks for all help.
Brian Hunter Beesley,
Vancouver, Canada
a

[seemex]

Jun 30, 2016 12:23:51 GMT -5 seemex said:

 My family were born in Hong Kong, but my great grandfather was from England and settled in Foochow in 1865. I have a clipping from the South China Morning Post in 1937 regarding the estate of "Kot Choy" who died at the age of 83. I also have property records from the Hong Kong land registry showing several lots in that name beginning in 1887 and continuing through until 1937. She is listed at times as "Mr" Kot Choy.

Brian Hunter Beesley,
Vancouver, Canada


I posted some time back, looking for information about the CHOY name. I am not totally clear whether it is a surname or not. Property listings seem to show it in the Caucasian format with Choy ( Kot Choy ) appearing to be a surname, but other property listings for Chinese owners are the other way around. I was hoping to get more information fro a death certificate in Hong Kong but apparently there is nothing we do not already know. She was my great grandmother and most likely a Eurasian of at least 50% Chinese. I am trying to determine her parentage and whether she is a Choy family. I believe she was from Fuzhou as that is where my Great Grandfather was from 1865 until 1887. They had four children who were raised in Hong Kong. I do not believe that Kot Choy and my great grandfather were formally married. The children all went by the surname Hunter, as did Kot Choy when she passed away in Hong Kong in 1937. I would really like to find out more about her and her family wherever she was from. I realize that this a real stretch but I've been searching for about 20 years now and only recently discovered her existence. Such things were obviously kept a secret in both cultures. Any help anyone can offer would be so much appreciated.
Thanks
Brian Hunter Beesley
Canada

[gckimm]

Hi Brian:

A Google search for "Choa Leep Chee Hong Kong" uncovered a lot of information about this gentleman and his family. If he is one of your ancestors, you are descended from a very prominent family of 19th century merchants. Among the pages I found was a Chinese Wikipedia page dedicated to the family of Mr. Choa and listing his ancestors and descendants (I would paste in the link but part of the address is in Chinese and it is not pasting correctly). Unfortunately, I do not see the name of Kot Choy or Anna Hunter but she could have been a daughter-in-law or other relative not listed.

The inscription on Mr. Choa's tomb is very traditional and full of honorary titles used in reference to deceased elders. The first two characters 皇清 refer to the Qing Dynasty and are used to give the impression that the deceased was an imperial official--but he was not. They could appear on anybody's grave. The next two characters 顯考 mean "illustrious deceased father." Then you have his name, with the surname Choa/Cai/Choy followed by "gentleman" as explained above by twoupman. 府君 is another honorary title for a deceased father; you could think of it as "head of the house." The last two characters mean, "grave of."

I suggest you try to get in touch with other members of the Choa family to see if any of them can help you figure out the connection to Kot Choy.

[seemex]

Thank you for your response. I am afraid I am at the end of my resources. As I mentioned, I think that it all probability, mixed relationships
were frowned upon by both sides and even today it might be difficult to find anyone willing to speak of it. I know so little, and I started far too late;
after my mother and grandfather were gone and there are no remaining relatives now who would know. What gave me hope is the fact that when Anna Hunter( Kot Choy) died she was worthy of a mention in at least two English language newspapers, which would seem to me to indicate she was at least of some social standing in Hong Kong.
We think she may have come from Fuzhou and that at least one of the children were born there. She held title to several properties in Hong Kong, beginning as far back as 1887. From what I understand there were not many women landowners at that time.
My GGF returned to the UK in about 1887, married there, and fathered two more children before passing away in 1894. The only reference I had was a letter from my GF to his daughters in which he mentions the disbursal of the proceeds of "G"s Legacy. We had no idea who "G" was. I traced the one piece of property listed at 4 Moreton Terrace, Hong Kong, and found it was held by Kot Choy. I thought it was a man and possible a family friend until I came across the newspaper articles about her death. They were actual news items and not Obits. A recent DNA test shows me at 4-6% Asian and that same percentage is shown for two other remaining relatives, both descendants of my GFs brother and sister. I would so like to find more on her, but most records have been destroyed, or well hidden. I just feel someone knows something, so I keep looking! 
Thanks again
Brian

[gckimm]

Brian, I had an idea that might help you but it will require some work and patience. Since Anna Hunter was buried at St. Michael's Cemetery, she was most likely a Catholic, as being Catholic was probably a requirement for burial there. If you could obtain the information from her baptismal record, it would contain also the names of her parents. You could request that information if you knew the name of the church where she was baptized. The oldest church in HK was called Immaculate Conception. Unfortunately, it burned down in 1859 (the year of Anna's birth?). But she may have been baptized after that disaster. The church was later rebuilt and is now the cathedral. Check with Immaculate Conception Cathedral (16 Caine Road) to see if there is a record there for her. The information you seek is on that baptismal record. You just have to find it. Good luck!

[seemex]

I am not sure what her name was! Choy could have a been a married name. I doubt that she was born in Hong Kong as our early family was in Foochow so more likely she was born there. My only hope was that there was a medical version of the death record in Hong Kong and that whoever gave the information at the time of her death, both knew the information, and told the truth about it! If relationships were secretive, then maybe they didn't divulge it all, or maybe they just didn't know.
Being that her death was in 1937 I thought there might be a better chance that more informative records were made re: deaths and other vital statistics but maybe not.
I don't know what Catholic Churches were in Hong Kong of Foochow in 1853 era. Also non-catholics could be buried in the catholic cemetery if they had other family members there. The Choy name started as Cai and is also Choi, Choa and Chua depending on geographics. I will look into the Catholic diocese. It's a difficult place to find info now.
The Diocesan School had my grandfather...but none of the other children. I'll look into it further, thank you for your advice
Brian

[LJ]

Hi Brian, gckimm, and twoupman,

Combining gckimm's and twoupman's digitizations and translations of Chinese characters from the grave monument, I just did a digitization of the entire Chinese inscription, using MDBG.net and Academia Sinica's 2000 years Chinese-Western calendar conversion tool (中央研究院 兩千年中西曆轉換),

	皇
	清
	顯
宣	考	咸
統	立	豐
己	志	戊
酉	蔡	午
年	公	年
九	府	八
月	君	月
初	之	十
十	墓	八
日		日
酉		甲
時		時

obtaining the full translation and date conversion,

The grave of the Imperial Qīng illustrious deceased father Leep Chee Choa, gentleman, head of the house
24th September 1858
23rd October 1909

Note that the date of birth from the conversion, 24th September 1858, does not match the corresponding date of 21st January 1859 in the English inscriptions on the gravestone.

I think I can paste the Wikipedia page on Choa Leep Chee and his family is, 蔡立志. When I went to this page using Chrome, I selected the browser's English translation and saw a lot of great information that should help Brian.

Best regards,
LJeung

[seemex]

Thanks you so much for your interest and assistance. I must admit that I have gotten slack about checking messages. I'd had so many that are not to do with my own questions that I'd begun to just skim through without paying close attention. I'm afraid I'd missed a few, but am catching up. I'm not sure if Choa was really a relative, but he and some family attended the funeral of my GGM who had the name Kot Choy. She is buried at St Michael's in Happy Valley, s and I'm not sure what all the relationships are. It's very interesting to see the new dates and all the associated names from the Wiki link.
I appreciate it a lot.
Thank you
Brian Beesley.
Vancouver

[LJ]

No problem, Brian. Choa Leep Chee's Wikipedia page uses the same date of birth as the one in his grave monument's English inscriptions, January 21, 1859 (1859年1月21日). It says he was born in Malacca (馬六甲), the Straits (海峡) Settlements (殖民地), and his ancestral home (祖籍) was in Haicheng (海澄) County (縣), Zhangzhou (漳州) Prefecture (府), Fujian (福建). His ancestral home being in the province of Fujian fits the commonness of the surname 蔡 / Choy / Choa / Cai / Chua in that province that you and twoupman mentioned.

The page also lists the sources for this information.

Best regards,
LJeung

[LJ]

Hi Brian,

I just took a deeper look at the Wikipedia page and found a link to a page on his family, 蔡立志家族 with a family tree showing Choa Leep Chee's most recent ancestors and descendants. Unfortunately, your great-grandmother under either of her names is not in the tree.

Also, since Mr. Choa was born in 1858 or 1859 and your great-grandmother was born circa 1854 (her year of death 1937 minus her age of death 83), then your ancestor might have been Mr. Choa's sister or cousin.

Best regards,
LJeunga