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Post by jasonwu on Mar 22, 2017 8:34:56 GMT -5
Hello Doug and Ginny,
Like naming conventions which we talked bout in another thread, names for your grandparents also vary from clan to clan and region to region. Although my parents' villages are only located a 20 minute walk away from one another, grandparents are addressed very differently.
In my paternal village, your father's parents are called ah-yeh and ah-ngin (though I have been brought up to call my paternal grandmother mah-mah as in Standard Cantonese) while your mother's parents are called ah-gong and ah-paw.
In my maternal village, your father's parents are called ah-gong and ah-paw while your mother's parents are called gong-dai and paw-dai.
These 2 sets of addressing your 4 grandparents are most common in the Siyi region.
Though, I am not quite why your FIL would address his adoptive mother as ah-paw.
Doug, did you mention that calling a mother ah-paw is common from your experience?
If in fact your FIL addressed his adoptive mother as ah-paw as in grandmother, perhaps they were both from the same clan and it turns out that the adoptive mother was two generations above your FIL as opposed to one generation. As a sign of respect, I call all the wives of my grandfather's male cousins ah-paw. This means that despite a few being some 10 years younger than my father, I still address them as ah-paw.
Do you know the age gap between your FIL and his adoptive mother? Is it possible that the adoptive mother had a male heir that passed away, and your FIL was actually adopted to continue her biological deceased son's lineage?
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Post by Doug 周 on Mar 22, 2017 9:14:14 GMT -5
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Post by kcchung on Mar 22, 2017 9:59:37 GMT -5
Jason
My FIL mother did have at least 2 children one living to the age of 7 before he died and the other died younger. Her husband lived in Canada -> US and did not travel back after he immigrated. The story goes that My FIL mother requested money to adopt 2 children. I suspect it was to help care for her, her property and for future respect of their ancestors.
My FIL was about 40 years younger than his adoptive mother. He was born in 1929 and his mother about 1892. Given his adopted parents married at age 16, that aligns with your theory of generational difference.
We do believe although he was not from the same village as his adoptive parents, he remembers his surname did not change so we were guessing they were in the same clan. My notes also state he was the oldest of 3 brothers and he started school the year after he was adopted. So I'm guessing that is about 5 years old.
Ginny
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Post by kcchung on Mar 22, 2017 10:10:24 GMT -5
Doug - That video was awesome!! Both my husband and I were laughing watching it. I have to share it with my kids.
In 1986 we went back to the villages and I could totally relate. My SIL was with us and and was introducing us to everyone. She told them to just call me "Ginny" otherwise I would not realize they were talking to me.
Ginny
I just browsed those links you posted. Thank you. I've saved them for future reference.
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Post by jasonwu on Mar 22, 2017 12:03:49 GMT -5
Ginny,
I remember you mentioning that your MIL had marriage papers stating her lineage. Would your FIL happen to have something similar? Perhaps we could find some clues in that certificate to verify the generation gap?
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Post by kcchung on Mar 22, 2017 13:28:27 GMT -5
Jason The marriage papers do not replace the zupu. I recently found out I was lucky I had these papers at all. My MIL's nephew does not have similar papers for his marriage. He was married in the same village that my MIL lived. He told me they were only drawn up because my MIL and FIL were from different villages to ensure there was no overlap in clans. In 2000 (hard to believe it was that long ago), with the help of my SIL and my FIL we translated his papers and my MIL's papers. The following identifies their original place of birth, Province Guangzhou, County Xinhui, live Lung Sui, Sup(10) bao, 4 Gaap. "House of See Ging Chung", commoner, resided at Mong San for many generations. Great-grandfather was named Tchu King. Great grandmother maiden name was Yuen. Grandfather was named Kwan Hung. Grandmother maiden name was Young Father was named Mei Gau, Mother was from the tribe of Ko. This invitation is for the number 1 son. This person is the first born. Born on cycle 77, Chinese Year Wu-Chen (5), year 1928, month 12, day 6 (January 16, 1929 of the Gregorian calendar) between 3:00 and 5:00 in the afternoon. This is the birthday information of a Chung male belong to the Wing Chuen Quon with many future descendants. I photographed my FIL's paper. It's about 3 feet long and is still in relatively good shape. My MIL's is not as good shape, as she used it over and over as a form of identity. Attached is the actual document in 2 pieces on the chance that the translation does not take into consideration some of the subtleties of the Chinese characters. In the thread which I started trying to locate my FIL village I just updated it with more information my MIL gave me regarding HER MIL's village (my husband's paternal grandmother). My MIL is 90 years old and the last remaining of her generation alive. So I'm trying to think of anything else I can ask her NOW before it's too late. Her mind is still sharp and she lived with her MIL for years - just the 2 of them, while their husbands lived abroad. So I figured they shared their life stories.
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Post by kcchung on Mar 22, 2017 13:37:05 GMT -5
I should add, I had sent these pictures to a friend recently to see if she could translate it and to see if there were any changes I needed to be aware of.... This started me on my journey which I am now undergoing - I feel I'm still at the early parts of this journey as I uncover more things to look at. This was her translation: The following identifies their original place of birth, Province Guangzhou, County Xinhui, City Lung Sui, Parish Sup Tau, 4 Gaap Street . He was a descendant of See Ging Chung, and a permanent resident of Mong San Village. Guangzhou Province(Prefecture)廣州府 Xinhui County新會縣, Lung Sui City瀧水都 Sup Tau Parish 十圖 (note: the word in the certificate is an old form of the word shown here. The old form is no longer used and not found anywhere. ) 4 Gaap Street四甲, Chung See Ging 鐘思敬. Mong San Village網山
Great-grandfather was named Chiu King. Great grandmother maiden name was Yuen. Chiu King超琼, Yuen clan or family 袁氏
Grandfather was named Kwan Hung. Grandmother maiden name was Young Kwan Hung 群欽, Young clan or family 楊氏
Father was named Mein Gau, Mother was from the tribe of Ko. Mein Gau 美歌 ( meaning beautiful music), Ko tribe高族
This invitation is for the number 1 son. He was born in the year of the Dragon (Mau San) 辰年, 12 month 十二月﹐ 6th day初六, time 3:00 - 5:00 in the afternoon申時.
The Chung family originally came from Wing Churng Province. This is for male named Chung. More is to follow.
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Post by jasonwu on Mar 22, 2017 16:19:45 GMT -5
Ginny, You are very fortunate to be able to have these certificates. I believe this practice would've been abolished around the time of the Grand Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution because of the traditional values which they represent. There was a fellow forum user with a similar set of marriage certificates; see his thread here: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/thread/2143/looking-great-grandfather-duanfen-taishan. One oddity in the certificate that I have spotted is that your FIL is said to be the first born son, when in fact, we've mentioned that his mother had two other sons before adopting your FIL. Perhaps this reinforces my theory of your FIL actually being an adoptive grandson to his paw and, therefore, the "first born son" to her two deceased sons. I cannot say that this is solid evidence to my theory, though. Perhaps you may ask your MIL in she remembers the maiden name of her MIL aka the paw of your FIL. If indeed paw's maiden name was Young (which the paper indicates is the groom's grandmother) then that validates my theory. If paw's maiden name was Ko (which the paper indicates is the groom's mother) then I have led a false theory all along.
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Post by kcchung on Mar 22, 2017 16:38:33 GMT -5
Jason, Somewhere, not sure where I saw it, but because the other sons never reached adulthood or marriageable age, it was like they didn't exist as it relates to the marriage certificate. My in-laws were married in 1947 and both had left China by 1952. My FIL did tell me his mother's name - which the surname was Ko. I'm more inclined with your earlier theory - or how I understood your earlier theory . My FIL recalled his early childhood from another village. If who he was adopted into was a clansman, and possibly a different generation, giving the honored title of Grandmother, makes sense. Especially if he was old enough at the time of the adoption to know his birth mother. It would have been strange for him to start calling another woman, mother, when he knew she wasn't his mother. But giving her the honored title, makes more sense to me. If he started school the year after he was adopted - that puts him about 5 years old at the time of the adoption. It would have been very confusing for him to start calling someone else mother. Ginny
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Post by kcchung on Mar 22, 2017 17:01:57 GMT -5
Jason Fascinating story you pointed me to. Thank you. I refer to my documents as marriage certificate, but they were not, per se, a marriage certificate. As mentioned in the previous post, there is one document for the husband, and one document for the wife. I was told they would be exchanged and examined prior to the marriage to ensure that both families came from reputable lines and ensure they were not related. In 2000 we were sitting around my house and I had pulled them out to have the documents translated. I had both my father and mother-in-law, with my husband's 2 older sisters. It took about 3 hours, laughing and talking to get the documents translated for me to write down. We kept getting off topic as either my FIL or MIL would detail stories about the individuals listed in the document. The following identifies their original place of birth, State Guangdong, Province Guangzhou, County Xinhui, live Chiu Goy, Yacht (1) bao, 9th Gaap. She was a descendant of Chiu Di Chun, and a permanent resident of Sum Gong Village, Street Jung San. Great-grandfather was birth name Chung Pak, married name Ming Geen, married name Yue Shong. There were 2 Great Grandmothers named. The first was named Yep. The second was named Wong. Grandfather was birth name Jung Fall, married name Jim Kwan, married name Ting Lo. There were 2 Grandmothers named. The first was named Chan. The second was named Cheng. Father was birth name See One, married name Wing Bon, and married name Ding On. Mothers named Leung. Joyously given birth to {Celebrate Down } number 2 daughter. She was born in the year of the Rabbit (Ding Mao Cycle 77), 6 month, 20th day (July 18, 1927 of the Gregorian calendar), time 9:00 and 11:00 a.m, born healthy.
The Chiu family originally came from Teen Soy Province. This is for second daughter of Chiu family. More is to follow.
Note 1 At the time of marriage the males took on a hao or married name which is based upon the clan's generation name poem. They would then be addressed by the hao otherwise it would be taken as a sign is disrespect. Note 2: The first wife Yep, was betrothed to Chung Pak, but she died prior to her marriage. But according to Chinese tradition, a betrothal is still considered married and must be listed in the lineage. Note 3: According to Wo Hop Chiu, This ancestor had 2 wives, Chan and Cheng. His first wife thought he was too old when she married him. She refused to have sex with him. She found a second wife for him. This second wife then had a son. Because the wife who bears her husband a son is very important, the first wife could not be out done. She then had relations with her husband and also produced a son. This second son, although younger, is considered number one son. Wo Hop is a descendant of the first wife’s son. ---- I always knew (as a genealogist), I was very lucky to have these papers. It kills me that they are in such bad state from being unfolded over time. I figured that this was the only documentation I would find given my in-laws lived out in the country. (although I do also have a copy of what I've been told is the deed to their land in China - never translated that.) Didn't know about a zupu until just recently. I did ask my MIL yesterday if she knew if one existed, and she had never heard of one for either her or her husband's family. There is no value to these documents to anyone else, but to my husband and I, they are very precious. After pulling them out again, I have my husband looking at how we can preserve them better. I think we will try to iron them flat, photograph them in stages as recommended in the previous post so we can have a good digital copy of them. We also just ordered some lamination paper to preserve the original documents better.
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Post by jasonwu on Mar 22, 2017 17:50:42 GMT -5
Ginny, I'm glad my hypotheses have helped you connect some dots in this adoption case, although they were not completely like how I initially guessed. And yes, you are correct, these documents are not exactly wedding certificates. A traditional marriage must go through the process of 三書六禮 or the Three Documents and Six Rites: In the second rite, 問名 or "Asking the Name," the groom's family asks for the name and birth date of the bride which would be provided in a 庚譜 or "Age Document," which is the proper name for these red paper "wedding certificates." The document is placed in front of the altar and the ancestors are asked if they agree with this marriage. In the next rite, 文定 or "Text Confirmation," the groom's family sends the groom's Age Document along with gifts to the bride's family. The bride's family then does the same of placing the document in front of their ancestral altar and the two documents are compared to confirm that they have comparable backgrounds and ages. If there is no problem, the two families may continue by organizing the engagement, dowry, etc. (This is a translation from the Wikipedia page: .E9.87.87)" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89%E6%9B%B8%E5%85%AD%E7%A6%AE#.E7.B4..E9.87.87)You may Google Search 庚譜 to see more images of these Age Documents.
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Post by jasonwu on Mar 22, 2017 18:05:52 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing the tale about Grandmother Chan and Grandmother Cheng.
These are the stories that animate the names that we record and fuel our desires to learn more about our family histories. Again, I am glad you are recording these for future generations.
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Post by kcchung on Mar 22, 2017 18:32:46 GMT -5
Ahh Jason - you are a fountain of information!!! I am so jealous. Again I wish I knew enough to know what to ask. I also wish again I (or my husband) could read Chinese. You keep pointing me to these great documents - but they are all in Chinese. I don't let that stop me though. I've thanked online translators are helpful - as opposed in the old days when I had to rely solely on dictionaries. Three Documents and Six Rites: - you've now peaked my curiosity further to understand what these 3 documents are and what are the 6 rites. I guess 2 of the 3 are the name documents we've been talking about. Good thing I have the time to further delve into this new mystery. ------------------ I've always considered myself a family historian - as opposed to a genealogist. A genealogist focuses on the blood. I have always loved capturing the stories of the people - family history or the personality of the people who came before me. I guess it's the age old argument of 'Nature versus nurture'. Why did people do what they do? What were the outside forces which influenced these decisions?
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Post by Doug 周 on Mar 23, 2017 5:51:04 GMT -5
...these documents are not exactly wedding certificates. A traditional marriage must go through the process of 三書六禮 or the Three Documents and Six Rites:.... Jason, that really helps! As you referenced, I was involved in the 2014 thread about these documents siyigenealogy.proboards.com/thread/2143/looking-great-grandfather-duanfen-taishan . Ginny, just like kjhong , you are very lucky to have these family heirlooms. The Wikipedia translations leave much to be desired, but I still suspect these may have been generated by the matchmaker. Genny, did your family enter the USA during the Exclusionary period? Jason , your post goes into my reference bookmarks.
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Post by kcchung on Mar 23, 2017 8:21:16 GMT -5
Doug - yes there was a matchmaker involved. My FIL's mother had a cousin who was a matchmaker.
At the end of 1943, according to custom, a match was arranged between Coy Maiko's only son, FIL and MIL, a girl from the neighboring village of Jun San. At the time, Choy Yau Ko couldn’t decide between two prospective brides for her son. Therefore, she went to a fortuneteller to determine whom he should marry. She had a piece of red paper and incense and after it was burned. 3 incense sticks were burned for each women. Whichever the one which burned the most even was the one who was selected. This happened to be Wo Hop. As soon as they picked which girl who was to marry FIL they reserved the reception for the wedding banquet dinner. The match was made. . mY FIL'S mother gave my MIL's mother money and cookies as a tribute.
Partly because her children were adopted, and her husband lived in the US, Choy Yau wished FIL to marry someone from the neighboring village, Jun San. Jun San was stronger and Choy Yau knew the villagers would fear Jun San’s residents. She knew there would be reprisals upon her death from the local villagers as her son would be considered an outsider. With FIL marrying someone from Jun San, she knew the villagers would not bother her son or his family, for fear of these reprisals. If he were blood, there would not be an issue.
Engagements are 2 years and 40 days long (this is known as 4 years in China). Also, it is expected that the elders in a family be married first. During the engagement, there is no communication between the intended bride and groom at all. In fact, Wo Hop, was not even aware, a match had been made until a few months before the wedding. And upon being informed of her engagement, she wasn’t told whom she was to marry. After the traditional engagement of 2 years and 40 days, in early 1947, they married. The very first time they met was on their wedding day. They were both 19 years old.
When you got married - people would come and carry her in a covered litter. They would take her from her village to her husband's village. They never saw each other before they got married. She wore a red veil and headdress. When she arrived at my FIL's village there was a bed which they knelt. They discussed the dowry.
About 10 months after they were married, they returned to visit MIL’s family. She was the first bride ever to bring back her husband (an outsider) home. Everyone in the village lined the streets to see the new groom.
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