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Post by kcchung on Mar 23, 2017 8:27:50 GMT -5
Yes the family did come during the Chinese Exclusion act. But the primary entrance was to Canada in the 1920s.
I'm trying to research to see if I can locate any immigration papers. What I know
- My FIL's grandfather took his 4 sons to Canada. My FIL grandfather apparently journeyed back and forth numerous times from Canada -> China and back. - It' not known if they all came at the same time - They settled in Ontario - My FIL's father did not have US papers - My FIL's 2 uncles had US papers. - All 3 settled in Philadelphia, PA eventually.
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Post by Doug 周 on Mar 23, 2017 9:17:58 GMT -5
kcchungYou are fortunate (and wise) to be able to take such an extensive family history. Many beginning (obviously not you) family historians have difficulty initiating interviews until it is too late. The usual excuse is that the subject declines because it is 'unimportant' or past that period of life to be of any interest. Whereas true for all ethnicities, Chinese oral interviewers needs to earn guanxi (关系) to even get the right to ask such personal questions. Guanxi is earn by respect, persistence, a genuine show of interest, a display of prior knowledge of the individual's history, and initially small, short interactions. You mentioned that your family was eager to be interviewed. You seemed to have provided an atmosphere of friendly family reminiscing (the most enjoyable type of oral history taking). They granted you guanxi very willingly. IMHO
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Post by jasonwu on Mar 23, 2017 9:32:37 GMT -5
Hi Ginny and Doug, I am glad my post was appreciated. I will do my best to explain the 3 Documents and remaining 4 Rites in translation: Three Documents
- 聘書 "Proposal Document" - offered to the bride's family during "Sending the Text Confirmation" to officially ask for an agreement (the 庚譜 "Age Document" is offered along with this)
- 禮書 "Etiquette Document" - offered to the bride's family during the "Sending the Great Gifts" which lists the groom's gifts to the bride's family (essentially a bride price)
- 迎書 "Receiving Document" - offered to the bride's family during the "Bride Reception" which confirms the reception of the bride by the groom
Six Rites
- 納采 "Offering the Proposal" - the groom's matchmaker solicits a marriage with the bride's family bearing auspicious gifts (live eagles, cakes) and the bride's matchmaker seeks out information about the groom's family (this is why matchmakers are stereo-typically portrayed as gossipy, nosy women)
- 問名 "Asking the Name" - if the proposal is successful, the bride's family provides her information in a 庚譜 "Age Document;" the groom's family places this in front of the ancestral altar and asks for the permission from the ancestors to carry out this marriage
- 納吉 "Offering Auspiciousness" or 過文定 "Sending the Text Confirmation" - on an auspicious day, the groom's family sends the bride's family gifts (poultry, fish, pork, wine), the 聘書 "Engagement Document," and the groom's 庚譜 "Age Document;" the bride's family then does the same of asking for permission from their ancestors and compare the information of the bride and groom; the marriage has been initially confirmed
- 納徵 "Offering Confirmation" or 過大禮 "Sending the Great Gifts" - on an auspicious day, the groom's family has the matchmaker and 2 or 4 auspicious female relatives (must have in-laws, parents, husband, and children who are alive and well) bear gifts and the bride price to the bride's family; the bride's family then sends the visitors back with their gifts; the marriage has been completely confirmed
- 請期 "Choosing the Date" or 擇吉日 "Choosing the Auspicious Day" - the groom's family chooses an auspicious date based on the birthdays of the groom and bride; the date is written in a document and sent to the bride's family along with gifts; the marriage date has been confirmed
- 親迎 "Bride Reception" - the groom, dressed in his wedding gown, and his matchmaker and relatives head to the bride's family to receive the bride with the 迎書 "Receiving Document;" the groom must first worship the bride's ancestors in her ancestral hall and then take the bride home in a litter; at the groom's home, the bride and groom bow thrice (for heaven and earth, for ancestors and parents, and for bride and groom) and then are brought to their wedding room
After I wrote this translation, I realized that there is a Wikipedia page in English which explains these rites and documents and more. (Link) These are the prescribed marriage customs but like most other Chinese traditions they will vary from region to region. Today, most Chinese marriages omit the three documents and only include the fourth and sixth rites which are done on the wedding day.
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Post by ginagaladriel on Mar 23, 2017 9:42:34 GMT -5
Ginny,
With the information you have, try using: familysearch (dot) org there I found several travel manifestos from my great-grandfather, and I know for sure they have immigration papers to and from China-Canada.
There try several pronunciations of names and order of the names (e.g. the first time I searched my great grandfather (Zheng/Cheng Chi Fat) appeared with Fat as his surname).
Best of luck!
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Post by kcchung on Mar 23, 2017 9:50:18 GMT -5
... Many beginning (obviously not you) family historians have difficulty initiating interviews until it is too late. Doug My passion is family history. I started working on my own when I was still in High School. Before we were married I started interviewing my FIL and MIL. As I mentioned in the past, my FIL would ONLY talk if it was just the 4 of us. He would stop talking the minute one of my husband's other siblings walked in the room. And I knew we were done for the day. I have over 30 years of interviews with my FIL and MIL. I keep a red leather book collecting all the stories. I dated each interview and who was involved. My FIL was such a great guy. We got along great. He used to joke that 'I was keeping the family history for when my son became President, so his stories would be known'. I am now reviewing all the interviews to think what NEW questions I have to ask my MIL. So looking back over the interviews the stories change slightly with age and memories. But that is expected because memories fade. With the recent publication of my own family history, I am now enthused to do the same for my husband.s
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Post by kcchung on Mar 23, 2017 9:54:06 GMT -5
ginagaladriel,
I have been using both familysearch.com and ancestry.com checking the Canadian manifests. I got so excited the other day as I thought I had spotted my FIL grandfather - it even listed Sun Wui as place of birth. But I am now questioning it.
The challenge is which given name did they use - there were 3 different options to choose from. Given my FIL grandfather is said to have made numerous trips, I am zeroing in on him.
Ginny
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Post by kcchung on Mar 23, 2017 10:02:08 GMT -5
Jason
Thank you very much for writing up the description. I will be sure to include many of this in my write-up on the family. I love including the Chinese characters (names) for each section so very much appreciate you including that.
I am becoming more and more sensitive to including the characters as there are subtle differences in translations on some of the things.through.
Is there a timing associated with these rites? How long it takes between each of the rites?
Ginny
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Post by jasonwu on Mar 23, 2017 10:12:40 GMT -5
Ginny,
I am not quite sure of the timing between the rites. I guess the timing would depend on the amount of auspicious days available around the time of the proposal/marriage. Marriages were a big deal in old China and even the poorest of families would do their best to fund the rites and gifts, so extending the period of time in which these rites were carried out would create a sense of prolonged prosperity and celebration for the families involved.
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Post by ginagaladriel on Mar 23, 2017 10:14:34 GMT -5
Hi Ginny, I thin you should still keep the manifestos you have, even if you're second guessing yourself, one thing you can try to do (if you haven't already) is checking the manifestos and see if you recognize other names, even if you are not sure if they all traveled together, recognizing another name within the same manifesto could be a re-assurance you have the correct person.
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Post by jasonwu on Mar 23, 2017 10:19:47 GMT -5
You are correct about the subtle differences in translations. I did my best to translate the terms as literal as possible but in reality many of those formal words are not commonly used in everyday Chinese.
Most old zupus/jiapus, such as one I obtained from a cousin of my grandfather, include formal prologues which are extremely difficult to comprehend even for the Chinese literate such as my parents due to the use of ancient formal Chinese. I found myself singling out and individually translating uncommon characters, then stitching them back into the text.
Jason
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Post by kcchung on Mar 23, 2017 12:13:00 GMT -5
Jason, I had sent those Name papers to my girlfriend last year to get her take on the translation. She also mentioned many of the characters were no longer in use. But it was interesting to get her take on the translation as compared to what I had before. It did spark new avenues to explore. It was because of this thread I went back to my MIL to ask if she knew if her MIL (my husbands' grandmother) was a local to my FIL village. Never thought to ask that before. As American's say 'Continuing to peel back the onion' to learn new information and understand the story. Off to listen to those videos you sent me with my husband to see if it sparks any new questions I love the journey of discovery. Ginny
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Post by Doug 周 on Mar 23, 2017 21:51:26 GMT -5
...formal prologues which are extremely difficult to comprehend even for the Chinese literate ... My cousins in Shanghai even have a hard time with Traditional characters. Let Dr. Moser explain Classical Chinese for Westerners. Why Chinese Is So d**n Hard click excerpted from section 6
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Post by Doug 周 on Mar 23, 2017 22:03:15 GMT -5
... A genealogist focuses on the blood.... I respectfully disagree. In my opinion, a genealogist emphasizes sources and verification, and should be non judgmental. Genetic or 'blood' connections are not relevant. Parents who merely donate a sperm or an egg are just as genealogically important as an adoptee's parents. Even the paper father and sons during the Chinese Exclusion Act are important. This is made more stark with the advent of DNA resources. The DNA does not change the genealogy, but merely adds another source to the family interviews and rich, important stories.
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Post by kcchung on Mar 23, 2017 23:10:19 GMT -5
Doug - I differentiate myself as a family historian as opposed to a genealogist, as I look beyond the blood connections. When you're adopted into a family, IMHO that makes you part of the family tree. I got into so many debates over the years with pure genealogists who did not agree with that premise. So I stopped calling myself a genealogist and started calling myself a family historian.
I am just as focused on sources and verifying information - I just take a broader brush to what is considered family than typical Western genealogists. The stories are key to me. I want to look beyond just the name, but find out as much about who the person was.
Now recognize I've been doing Western family research for close to 40 years. (I started young). I enjoy the research and LOVE the stories. It's a great hobby.
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Post by Doug 周 on Mar 24, 2017 8:39:13 GMT -5
kcchung and I are on the same side of a divide involving serious genealogist/family historians. We just differ in labels/semantics. Most who visit this Forum are interested only in that little niche of genealogy/family history call Chinese heritage. Please understand that there is a nature vs nurture debate on how people should study their genealogy/family history. Both of us feel that the family, no matter how it is defined, is the basis of who we are and how it paints our ancestors lives.
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