Question about 曾 jiapu

[rchan]

I have been searching for my paternal ancestral village in the past year. Recently, a netizen kindly volunteered to help me locate what we think may be the village, but my Hakka great-grandfather’s name didn’t appear to be in the jiapu. I’d appreciate some thoughts from the experts in this community.



My great-grandfather’s name: 曾源昆 字 毓源



Born: 丙午 (1846)



His headstone indicated that he was from 增邑 (Zengcheng district), no village name



My aunt insisted that he was from 木头塘 (Mutou Tang) in Zengcheng. I was skeptical because this village was written on my grandmother’s headstone (daughter-in-law of 曾源昆). She passed away in 1972 while my great-grandfather passed away in 1918.



The information I received from this person (along with a picture of the village) was as follows:



木头塘，这个曾姓人有300多，1795年迁过来这里的



估计这个五联的木头塘比较靠谱



Translation: The Zeng surname has more than 300 people, moved here in 1795.



I also received some information extracted from a jiapu. (这个是我们下村去拍的族谱，关于木头塘曾姓族人的。请查收).



But I couldn’t find my great-grandfather’s name. Does this mean this is the wrong village? Or could it be the case that his information was not recorded? He moved with his wife and 3 sons to Malaya in the late 1880s and my grandfather (the youngest of 4 sons) was born in Malaya. Short of visiting all the Hakka villages in Zengcheng looking 曾 families, what is the likelihood of this not being his village?



From the jiapu, I see the 毓(others born in the same generation as my great-grandfather) listed. What does 派 mean with numbers listed below?



Appreciate any thoughts you may have. Thank you.

[Doug 周]

You did a very nice job in your research. Tell us more about where you got the attached jiapu images. I assume you have not made a site visit to the potential villages? Is this something you are planning to do?

The jiapu images are a modern compiled version of the village zupu with Arabic numerals. It appears as your GGF is the 69th branch (派) generation, which is rather high number. The Chinese are proud of their generational number. Having that number makes looking for GGF's name in a zupu much easier. Many of the Punti本地 in Guangdong have generational numbers currently going as only as high as 30. Again, having this number should help in your search of other jiapus or the clan zupu.

As I mentioned, this modern jiapu indicates someone has compiled the information for a particular lineage. This might not be your lineage. However, someone has done modern compiling from the zupu. The village clan zupu has many volumes. Your presumed village is far enough away from Guangzhou that there may be an intact Ancestral Hall which survived the destruction of the Cultural Revolution.

Have you interviewed any of your grand uncle's family? Try to find their Chinese names from your distant cousins since they were born in China and might have their Zi (字) or even their milk names recorded. (parallel genealogy-tracing the name of relatives to find your own genealogy)

You are at the point that you should consider field work at the village(s), either on your own (with a guide) or commissioning someone. Consider Henry cousin or My China Roots . Having additional Chinese given names of your grand uncles would help.

IMHO

[gckimm]

Hi:

It is still possible that you have the correct book. Record keeping in China was certainly not perfect and was only complicated by the migration of family members to other countries. If you can find one known ancestor (or his brother) in the genealogy, that could be enough to verify your lineage.

Good luck!

Greg

[philiptancl]

If your great grandfather is at Generation 69, would that be with respect to Zeng Shen (曾參)? I had done pedigree chart for a Hakka friend of mine in Malaysia whose great-great-grandfather is at Generation 69 with respect to Zeng Shen (曾參). Does the jiapu you have list the ancestry to Generation 1?

Are you still in Malaysia?

Philip

[rchan]

Thank you all for responding to my inquiry.



I received the jiapu information from a kind woman in Guangzhou who was introduced to me by someone else through Facebook when I mentioned I was looking into my ancestral village in Zengcheng. This woman said she has friends in Zengcheng and sent a friend to 木头塘 (Mutou Tang) to get some information from the jiapu. I received 28 pages but most of them were more recent (generation 69 onwards). I didn’t communicate directly with the person who actually visited 木头塘. Thanks to Google translate, I was able to communicate with this woman in Guangzhou who went out of her way to help.



I do not know if the jiapu goes back to generation 1. However, I did see from the photos sent that the book has over 250 pages. I do not know why the person picked certain pages to send. Perhaps it pertained to the 曾 clan. In one of the pages, there were three brothers that were noted as having moved to Nanyang but the names were not related to my family. I attached some of the pages that were sent to me. I don’t know what the hand-written note meant – people in the village?



I have the name of my eldest grand-uncle, 曾欢华 (son of曾源昆 字 毓源). sent to me in writing. The names of grand-uncles 2 or 3 were given to me via voice message, and I had someone write them out (best guess): 曾华坤and曾就信 When I sent these Chinese characters back to my 80-year old aunt in Malaysia to confirm if the Chinese characters were correct, none of the descendants in grand-uncles’ line could confirm. It’s been difficult to get information.



I also contacted the Changlung Association in Gopeng where my great-grandfather had lived. The contact said the chances of finding any information for members over 100-150 years were slim. I have not received any information as it has been several months.



I am in US and have been relying on my 80-year aunt in Malaysia for information.



So if the next best step to hire someone to search further? Anywhere else I should look?



Thank you all for your kind help and suggestions.

[rchan]

Here are three  pages of generations before 69. The rest of pages sent to me were after 69.

Any clues here?

Thank you.

[Doug 周]

That was very kind that an acquaintance already has done some field work for you. There is ALWAYS a reason the ancestral-site field worker chooses certain pages to image. There is frequently collaboration and a general consensus with the village elders, etc that the volunteer chose those pages to image.

Have you’ve been in contact with the person who actually made the site visit? If not, can you get their WeChat UID and try to make contact? This should save you from making another field visit. If you do make contact, be aware that you have to maintain guanxi 关系 in your requests.

Being Chinese-language illiterate makes it hard for me to read the non bolded characters next to the names on your jiapu. It makes my eye crossed. Maybe a language literate might scan the words and advise if your relative’s name are printed. I suspect that the non bold text is from the ‘biography of family records” (jiazhuan 家傳).

Lastly, you might want to confirm the given name of your GGF.

Apr 5, 2018 18:57:43 GMT -5 @mjyee8 said:

...Name (Zi): 毓 Yu (Last Character Obscured)...

The gravestone image has been deleted on a previous post and @mjyee8 had a hard time deciphering the name.

[philiptancl]

If Mutou Tang (木头塘) was written on your grandmother’s headstone (daughter-in-law of your great-grandfather 曾源昆), that would be the ancestral place of your grandfather and hence that of your great-grandfather. The tradition I find here in Malaysia is that the women’s ancestral place given in obituaries and headstones would be that of their husbands.

250 pages for a zupu/jiapu is not too large. I have a Zeng (曾) zupu for descendants from Generation 57 (with respect to Zeng Shen (曾參)) downwards that has 1,700 pages. So try to get a scan of the complete 250 pages. I am now pretty sure that Generation 69 mentioned before is with respect to Zeng Shen (曾參). I have done pedigree charts for about a handful of Zeng (曾) and all of them would also have generation numbering with respect Zeng Shen (曾參).

Get the names (in Chinese characters) as many of the male Zeng (曾) relatives from great-grandfather down. If possible get the name of your great-great grandfather as well. See if there is any match. Sometimes the name given in the zupu is different from what you know it. Just a couple of weeks ago, I was searching for the name of the grandfather of someone within the charts provided in a zupu but was in vain. It was only when I asked for the name of his father that I found the match in the chart. When I looked at the profile details listing his grandfather other names in the zupu did that the person then vaguely recalled his grandfather indeed had the other name as listed on the chart in the zupu. The birth and death dates and spouse all matched.

Do not use what you think the Chinese characters would be based upon what you hear over voice message. Get the other side to write them out and photograph the writings to you if the other side is not able to digitize them.

Regions around Gopeng have a lot of Hakka. I had done two pedigree charts for two Hakka from that region, though not in Gopeng itself.

If the 250 pages do not reveal any results, you may consider taking up Doug 周’s suggestion of engaging Henry cousin or My China Roots to do the search for you.

Philip

[rchan]

Thank you all SO MUCH for your comments and suggestions. I really appreciate it. You have given some ideas on where else to search, what questions to ask and who can help. It's been quite an exciting journey. I hope to visit both my paternal and maternal ancestral villages sometime in the very near future.

[philiptancl]

In my two replies earlier, I had not look at the pages you had posted. I just have a casual look at them today and I have the following comments regarding them:

1. The jiapu/zupu uses simplified Chinese characters. So if you have the names in traditional Chinese characters, do convert them appropriately in your search.

2. It would appear to me the jiapu/zupu has been updated in recent years.

3. As you have posted only a few pages that appeared to be the chart form, they appear not to follow the structure of others, where the relationship of how ancestors from one generation are related to the next. As such on would need to study the whole jiapu/zupu to assess how they are constructed. Also with the whole jiapu/zupu it should be able to see the pedigree lineage from Zeng Shen (曾參) down and then from it where thebranch off is with respect to other Zeng (曾) clans that I am having.

4. From what was posted it would that having generation names starts from Generation 58. Looks like the generation name is for the Zi (字) name with in quite many other surname clans. So if you know your generation poem, we could compare with what is given in the jiapu/zupu to ascertain you actually belong to this branch of the Zeng (曾) clan. Except for Generation 56 where the Zi (字) name for文达 is given as仕达, I do not seem able to see those for others that are listed on the pages you have posted.

5. Looks like the listing, of details for profiles from each generation to the next, is along each family line. It is not along profile arrangement where all from one generation are being listed first and then follows those of the next generation. Therefore, even if you know the generation number for the name you are searching for, but not the family line that he belongs to, you need to search from one family line to find the match for the name in question. If you do not know the generation number, the search is even more onerous. There could be sub, sub branches as well as in the zupu of the 1,700 pages zupu I mentioned earlier that I have.

6. Generation 69 绍赞 died in 1845 while the year of death for his son 绍赞 should be in 1860. If my calculation is correct the year of 庚申 should be in the reign of 咸丰 rather than that of 道光 as quoted.

7. Looks like at Generation 69, the names of daughters are also given.

Philip

[Doug 周]

philiptancl ‘s advice is good. He is the English-speaking zupu/jiapu expert on his side of the International Date Line (Kuala Lumpur)

I had earlier tried to see if there is a simplified version of your ancestors Chinese characters using: Chinese-Tools.com but did not get a conversion.

I am unsure if you are Chinese or Hakka fluent, but the Hakka language is distinct and possibly the elders were using homophones (sound alike and have different meanings and different spellings). You can confirm that by asking literate Hakka speakers to look at your images of the jiapu. You might want to tap into a Hakka forum. My heritage emphasized the LungDoo dialect which is has a distinct accent. I have occasional found homophones in my documents.

The simplest question to ask your kind Facebook-netizen-contact is to indicate which person did the field-worker believed was your ancestor. Be sure to ask in a respectful manner because Americans (probably not you) tend to be abrupt and task focused.

Two example of Forum members WeChat’s success:

siyigenealogy.proboards.com/post/20217

siyigenealogy.proboards.com/post/18396/thread

ping me if you need help setting up your WeChat

Please keep the Forum advised of any updates.

[rchan]

Philip, thank you for the good advice. I have learned a lot from your postings. I'll talk to my aunt to see if she can knows anything about a generation poem and other information from other relatives that might help in my search.

[rchan]

JoeySun, I grew up in Malaysia and speak Hakka and Cantonese but my vocabulary is rather limited. 😊

I have heard that WeChat is widely used in China and will look into getting WeChat set-up. Will definitely ping you if I need help.

Meanwhile, I will continue my search and will keep definitely post any new developments.

Thanks again! 

[rd228485forum]

Hello,

I am new to researching for my family’s genealogy zupu and would like some newbie help. My father was born in Wo Lok in Sheung Kok Heung in 1920. His name was Dong (Zeng) Shui Kow. He had 3 brothers and 1 sister. My grandfather’s name was Dong Chuen Yin. My father emigrated to the US while my grandfather and uncles went to Canada. My aunt stayed in China. Is there someone who can help me locate this zupu?

[philiptancl]

Hi rd228485forum,

I suppose the Chinese character for your surname Zeng is 曾 and I suppose Dong would be the transliteration of that surname in your dialect. Depending upon the dialect, I had seen other transliteration to be Chen (Hakka), Chan (southern Fujian) and Tjan (in Indonesian of southern Fujian dialect). I done some six pedigree lineage ancestral charts for that surname and each is based upon the different zupu the person managed to obtain from each of their respective ancestral villages. There is no one zupu covering that surname for all ancestral places in China. Therefore you first need to know the ancestral village you ancestor originated from and then either go there or (engage someone to do that for you) to search out the main Zeng ancestral hall to check if your zupu still exists and that you could get a copy of it. If that is the zupu that your ancestor names are recorded, you still need to know their names in Chinese characters before you can start searching to determine where you belong in the big family tree.

Philip