Family Generation Poems

[pamwong]

I am writing a family history story about my father's family poem. Here are some questions.

1. Is a Lee family poem from Hoiping the same as one from Toisan or Heungshan?
2. I've been criticized for calling it a generation family poem instead of just a family poem. What is the proper term?
3. Who writes a family's poem?
4. What qualifications does the writer need to have?
5. How long would it have taken for a scholar or poet to write a new family poem?
6. What is involved in writing a family poem?
7. If I want to find the family poem for the Cheng family, for instance, what info do I need to provide and to whom?
8. Much of the discussion I've read about family poems seems to focus on the generation character aspect. Can you please explain the precept aspect?
9. Although it may not be as popular a tradition in modern China to retain or use the family poem to select a baby's name, perhaps in the more provincial villages and areas, the tradition is still strong. Is that possible?
10. Was it the case that children were required to memorize their family poems as part of their education? During what period of time may that have been the case?
11. Did every clan once have a family poem?

Sorry for so many questions. They just started to tumble out!

[Henry]

Hi Pamwong:

1. Is a Lee family poem from Hoiping the same as one from Toisan or Heungshan?

These clan poems are usually specific to a village or group of villages in the same area. In Taishan, I have found over a dozen variations of the same poem.

2. I've been criticized for calling it a generation family poem instead of just a family poem. What is the proper term?

A generational poem is usually adopted by the people of a family in the same village - as in the Siyi area, most villages are dominated by a single clan.

3. Who writes a family's poem?

The compilers of the clan genealogy book.

4. What qualifications does the writer need to have?

Clans hire scholar(s) to write the poem. Probably a person that passed one or more of the civil service exams.

5. How long would it have taken for a scholar or poet to write a new family poem?

Not long.


6. What is involved in writing a family poem?

The clan generational poem is usually around a 32 character verse about how the clan needs to be virtuous. Each character represents a generation and when they run out of characters, the poem is repeated or they hold a clan convention to come up with a new poem.


7. If I want to find the family poem for the Cheng family, for instance, what info do I need to provide and to whom?

The ultimate source for a clan generational poem is in the village genealogy book that contains the poem & the names of the ancestors.


8. Much of the discussion I've read about family poems seems to focus on the generation character aspect. Can you please explain the precept aspect?

Please see the following 3 slides from an introductory presentation that I do at one of the Chinese genealogy workshops that I organize.










9. Although it may not be as popular a tradition in modern China to retain or use the family poem to select a baby's name, perhaps in the more provincial villages and areas, the tradition is still strong. Is that possible?

I doubt that this village tradition is still strong in the rural villages or in the schools in Guangzhou or Hong Kong. Most of the overseas Chinese no longer follow this tradition. My parents were very old fashioned & I did get a Chinese marriage name. I continued the tradition to my brother & to my son. I have even reserved marriage names for my grandson & after I pass - for my great grandsons.

10. Was it the case that children were required to memorize their family poems as part of their education? During what period of time may that have been the case?

This was usually a village tradition that probably stopped after the Chinese Communists took over in 1949.

11. Did every clan once have a family poem?

Yes.

[pamwong]

Hello Henry,

Thank you for the helpful information! It aligns with an informal survey I've been taking of Chinese friends and relatives. Pretty much only 1 of 25 respondents had their family poem or knew about family poems.

We have a copy of the CHENG ga po (jiapu), but not the zupu. No one has found a poem in the ga po. Where could I find the zupu?

Sincerely,
Pam

[Henry]

Hi Pam,

The jiapu is usually an abbreviated version, with a pedigree single line of descent, of the zupu, which probably contains the clan generational poem. As I have said:

7. If I want to find the family poem for the Cheng family, for instance, what info do I need to provide and to whom?

The ultimate source for a clan generational poem is in the village genealogy book that contains the poem & the names of the ancestors.

This is why the Chinese characters for the name of the Cheng ancestral village and its map location is so important. It is in this village, where you may be able to find the village genealogy book (zupu). Or if not, then possibly in a nearby Cheng clan ancestral hall or larger town/city - where a published Cheng zupu can be found.

Also, to be clear - what is the Chinese character for the Cheng surname ? There are are at least 4 different Chinese characters for the "Cheng" romanization.

Henry

[pamwong]

Hi Henry,

When we were last in the village, the Ancestral Hall was closed. We do have the Cheng name 鄭. Is there a place to search online for such a zupu?

Thank you.

Pam

[Henry]

Hi Pam,

My China Roots [ www.mychinaroots.com/ ] - but, if you are able to locate the zupu, other Forum members have said that you cannot zoom in to see the individual pages - probably cost you money in the end.

Family Search is free & has a collection of over 36,000 zupus: [ www.familysearch.org/en/ ]

Since you have been to the village - ask one of your village relatives to get you a copy of the village genealogy book or have he/she go to the nearby ancestral hall to buy you a copy of the Cheng zupu.

Henry

[gckimm]

Hi Pam:

Genealogy is very popular in China today. It is possible that someone has already posted your generation poem on the internet somewhere. There are many clan websites, for example, that contain lists of generation poems that have been submitted and collected from all over China. Since you already have your genealogy (congratulations!), you may be able to get an idea of at least some of the generation poem just by looking at the names of your ancestors and seeing what characters are common from generation to generation. If you can string together several characters, you could also do an internet search to see if that sequence shows up somewhere on the internet. If you don't mind posting the name of your ancestral village, along with any accompanying geographical areas, I would be happy to help you search.

Greg

[pamwong]

Hi Greg,

Thanks so much for the offer of help. I have the requisite info as a PDF file. How can I attach that here?

Pam

[pamwong]

Greg, I tried the "add image to post" button with no success. Pam

[gckimm]

Hi Pam:

Hmm, not sure what the problem is. I will send you a private message with my e-mail address.

Greg

[sang]

Hi,Henry
I entered this forum out of curiosity. However, I believe the slide about Chinese names is incorrect.
The naming system of the past follows 《禮記》 "Book of rites". 

The first is "名"，a given birth name comprised of a designated generation character of family poem and another character possibly picking out of a fortune telling practice. It is limited within the family and a more "humble” name. E.g. the younger generation is forbided to call elder generation by this name.  

The second is “字", a name given by elder at adulthood or wedding. It is chosen to represent the expectation or a good well. This is the offical name to the outside public and a respectable one. Useage of this name is generally the same as morden Chinese names.
 
The third is "號”，a name you pick for yourself at your own will. No particular rule applied here so you may obtain a very long one if you like.
 
The last is “諡"， an honorable name given by others after death. 

[Henry]

Hi Sang,

I apologize for the confusion, as I cannot read or write Chinese and have not read about the naming conventions from the(禮記)"Book of Rites" or have personal knowledge of these naming practices in other parts of China and/or during different time frames.

But, in my case, I believe the slide is correct from the reality of a lifetime of practice.

My knowledge on this topic is from my personal and life experience as taught to me and practiced by my rather old-fashioned parents from Taishan, China and confirmed by all my relatives and so many other Chinese from the Siyi region of China.

According to Emma Woo Louie, author of Chinese American Names: Tradition and Transition, 1998, page 46:

1. “A milk name or xiao ming (meaning “small name”) that was bestowed at birth;

2. A da ming (meaning “great name”) or school name which could be bestowed a few months after birth or when the child entered school;

3. A hao (號), variously translated as an adult name, a marriage name, or style;

4. A zi (or tzu, tzyh - 字), also known as a style or courtesy name

5. A bie hao, a nom de plume or pen name

The term hao and zi can be quite confusing because in the literature on Chinese names, the zi is called an adult name and the hao a courtesy name. According to Dr. Yuen Ren Chao and Professor Bauer, the meaning of these two terms were switched around in modern usage.”

Dr. Yuen Ren Chao is a renowned linguist and Dr. Wolfgang Bauer is also well known for his monograph on Chinese names.

Henry

[patrick.chew]

Despite this feeling less like a family history write-up, and more like a school/research assignment, here we go...

Adding on to what Henry responded with:

1. Is a Lee family poem from Hoiping the same as one from Toisan or Heungshan?

- tl;dr: Maybe.
— family/generation poems are (1) surname dependent, (2) lineage dependent*
— lineages might cluster in a particular district/region, but may also have branches that have moved between/among/back-and-forth between districts

*: many surnames claim descent from a single ancestor that migrated into the province; some surnames, however, may have multiple in-migrations, which mean that there might be more than a single "provincial" ancestor.

— within Toisan itself, for the LEEs:
—— there are three in-migrating ancestors that are not overtly related;
—— the majority of all LEEs in Toisan descend from a single ancestor;

—— there are multiple generation poems for these majority related LEEs, based on which of the 4 sons of that primary in-migrating ancestor;

—— within these branches, there can be variation in one or two of the generations, because the family underwent some sort of bad-luck/upheaval;
—— the assumption that there is a 1:1 relationship with village:surname usually holds true for most villages in Toisan and Hoiping

(Yanping, Sunwui, Chungsan, and many of the Saam-yap districts often have higher ratios of multiple-surnames to a single-village)
—— even if there is a 1:1 relationship between village and surname, some villages might have a single lineage, while others might have multiple lineages of the same surname (because of migrations of other lineages to a friendly related lineage).

2. I've been criticized for calling it a generation family poem instead of just a family poem. What is the proper term?

排歌 paai-go
班派 baan-paai
(穆字 muk-zi, 字輩 zi-bui, 班次 baan-ci usually refer to the componential aspect)

In English, the preferred term is "generation poem," because the characters of the poem are used one after another to indicate (1) senior-junior relationship between generations and (2) who are in the same generation, cf en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_name; many want to emphasize that it's individual to a 'family' in an extremely myopic scope, because they think their own "family" (often conflated with "surname/clan") will share it.

3. Who writes a family's poem?

As Henry has mentioned, usually family elders (usually the intersection of those that manage the lineage registries and are literate, for which overlap is of high degree).
UNLIKE the current situation in the diaspora, where clan lineages rarely know other related branches beyond their immediate families, clan networks were much more prominent. This means that if a single village is relatively unfamiliar with the traditions or have lower literacy rates, there would be neighboring related villages that would be used for consult and reference.

4. What qualifications does the writer need to have?

Usually, this is done by committee, rather than a single person.
In the diaspora, however, it often falls to a single literate/knowledgeable person to try and keep things going, since there's less contact with the clan at-large.

Committee members would have at least two qualifications: (1) literate and (2) has a good grasp of Classical poetry.
Classical poetry is a must, in order to know the patterns and requirements for the couplet or quatrain that would be created... things one needs to know include, beyond simple "rhyming," include knowledge of tone categories, grammar/syntax, and similarities/crossovers/homophony of characters.
For clan lineages that do not "recycle" their poem, another added constraint is that there is avoidance of any repetition.

5. How long would it have taken for a scholar or poet to write a new family poem?

Again, because this is a committee effort, timing is indeterminate.
If there is consensus, it might take as short as a day with the guidance/contributions of highly literate committee members.
Even if a committee is comprised of highly literate committee members, the process could take days/weeks/months to come to an agreement over "what's best".
Compounding the delays beyond mere consensus, things like auspiciousness calculations and discussions with collateral lineages might be in order, too.

6. What is involved in writing a family poem?

Too open-ended a question, since that could vary from lineage to lineage.
Poems are usually meant to extol family virtues and exhort generations to come; sometimes collateral lineages' poems will be complementary and complimentary at the same time.

7. If I want to find the family poem for the Cheng family, for instance, what info do I need to provide and to whom?

(1) you have to find out the lineage of the Cheng family in particular... information to help _might_ include as many male names up as much as possible, PLUS knowing the home village;
(2) some families don't remember; some villages also don't remember... doing the genealogy research to find collateral branches of the same lineage would be the next step.

SOME clans, like the Guan/Kwan/Quons and Szetos/Soohoo/Setos in Hoiping have clan libraries that coordinate it all...
Most don't...

8. Much of the discussion I've read about family poems seems to focus on the generation character aspect. Can you please explain the precept aspect?

What do you mean by "precept"?

9. Although it may not be as popular a tradition in modern China to retain or use the family poem to select a baby's name, perhaps in the more provincial villages and areas, the tradition is still strong. Is that possible?

Henry mentioned that there are numerous names a person, especially a male can have.
Birth names in most families (but sometimes in some) will *NOT* use the generation poem, because that is usually reserved for when a male is established. Like Henry mentions, in the Sìyī region (especially, Toisan/Hoiping/Sunwui (unsure about Yanping)), the name that uses the generation poem is usually given after a male marries.

Selecting baby names is a completely separate process unto itself.

The only overlap is that SOME families will choose a character for people born in the same generation to share—sometimes it will be birth-gender-divided, sometimes it will be shared regardless of birth gender; sometimes characters are chosen randomly, sometimes characters are chosen to be topical for the times, sometimes it will come from a poem like the generation poem (but will not be "official" and may or may not match the "official" generation poem.

10. Was it the case that children were required to memorize their family poems as part of their education? During what period of time may that have been the case?

Home education, yes.
Outside school education, no... if you made it an outside school pre-PRC times and didn't know your family's lineage/poem, you would likely really be considered uneducated...

11. Did every clan once have a family poem?

Generation poems didn't really start to be used until the Sòng Dynasty... when lineage management became more important... for some lineages in some regions.
To make such a statement as above would be ... absurdly stretching it.

[patrick.chew]

by: sang

I entered this forum out of curiosity. However, I believe the slide about Chinese names is incorrect.

The naming system of the past follows 《禮記》 "Book of rites".

The first is "名"，a given birth name comprised of a designated generation character of family poem and another character possibly picking out of a fortune telling practice. It is limited within the family and a more "humble” name. E.g. the younger generation is forbided to call elder generation by this name.

The second is “字", a name given by elder at adulthood or wedding. It is chosen to represent the expectation or a good well. This is the offical name to the outside public and a respectable one. Useage of this name is generally the same as morden Chinese names.

The third is "號”，a name you pick for yourself at your own will. No particular rule applied here so you may obtain a very long one if you like.

The last is “諡"， an honorable name given by others after death.

---

Your assumption that terminology and practice must adhere only to that which was historically recorded in the 《禮記》 "Book of Rites" is curious, considering that everything evolves, like... for instance... the Chinese language, itself... or even cultural practices that are obviously not only regional, but potentially time-depth contrastful.

Historically speaking, I would agree with the outline as above that you provide, however...
I'm also in agreement with Henry and his claims; he is also correct, especially given that the Sìyī Region (Táishān, Kāipíng, Ēnpíng, Xīnhuì) tends to have the following practice:

• 名 — Birth name 小名/milk name 乳名/"name of aspiration":

        • usually *NOT* taken from the lineage's generation poem

        • usually a "name of aspiration/hopes" for the child

        • sometimes an "insulting" name to ward off evil spirits/intent, e.g. 牛仔

        • some families might make a distinction between the three (乳名 'milk name' at birth, 小名 'little name' at the 100th day ceremony (百裸)) ; most won't
        • used by elders and compeers in a closer setting

• 字 — "courtesy name" (表字)

        • traditionally given at the coming of age "crowning ceremony"

        • name to be used outside of the household/family; sometimes overlaps with a "school name" (學名)

        • to be used by juniors and those outside of the family

• 號/号 — "sobriquet", name of establishment; often conflated with a 'registry name" (譜名/谱名)
  

        • in the Lh(e)i-yip regions, this is usually given when one gets married by family/lineage elders and is the ranking name in the lineage books

        • much of China outside of the Pearl River Delta and especially outside of the Lh(e)i-yip region follow (if at all) the custom as found in historical annals, where the 號/号 "sobriquet" can be classified into two primary categories: (1) the free-form self-chosen one (自號/自号) and (2) a sobriquet chosen by others, usually compeers in literary or official circles (贈號/号). There are, of course, other 號/号 that are also widely used: 綽號/绰号 "nickname," 國號/国号 "reign name" (limited to the imperial social stratum), etc.

Use of the following is relatively rare, unless dealing with relatively renowned or lineage-important personages:

• 諱/讳 'taboo name'  — used after someone has passed to refer to them out of respect OR because a character in the name is made taboo by an emperor's passing and taboo on those characters;
• 諡/谥 'posthumous title' — assigned as a posthumous honorific;
  
• 廟號/庙号 'temple name' — assigned to an exceptionally influential ancestor that has done something huge for the lineage/clan.
  

sang, sir, since your family traditions do not seem to match with those above, would you be so kind as to let us know where your family heritage comes from?

[chane]

It was mentioned on a Facebook Taishan page that someone saw his generation poem on the village gate. Is this a common or standard practice? It might help those looking for the poem but don't have easy access to the Jiapu.