Looking for information about "Tjan Lie" in historic 福建省龍溪

[ongindo]

My wife's family has a 族簿 from 1947 which details ancestors in West Java, Indonesia. The oldest entry says this about ancestor Ong (王) who left "Emoei" (Amoy/Xiamen) approx. 1795:

"born in HOKKIAN village HOE SHOA (TJANLIE) near the KAKBWE market (Hokkian province / Tjiangtjioe / Liongkee / Tjan Lie)"

Unfortunately, there are a number of factors conspiring to prevent me from making any sense of this:

• There are no Hanzi in the records for any of these place names
• The place names seem to mix the Indonesian/Dutch Van Ophuijsen spelling system with MinNan pronunciations 
• "Liongkee" (which I assume means Longxi / 龍溪縣) ceased to exist as a political division in Aug, 1960
  
• Although I know modern Longhai (龙海市) incorporated 龍溪縣 and 海澄縣 (and maybe some additional lands?), I am unable to locate any 龍溪縣 records or maps which refer to anything similar to "Tjan Lie"
• I'm not even sure what the correct Hanzi for MinNan Tjan Lie (or Hoe Shoa) would be

It would be amazing to find out more information about Hoe Shoa (or "KAKBWE"), but I'd be overjoyed to even narrow 龍溪縣 down to the general Tjan Lie area.

Some things that might help:

• Van Ophuijsen substitutes "oe" for "u" sounds. "Hoe Shoa" almost certainly sounds more like "Hu Shoa", whatever that would be in MinNan 
• Van Ophuijsen substitutes "tj" for "ch" sounds. Just as Tjiangtjioe becomes "Chiang-chiu", Tjan Lie almost certainly sounds more like "Chan Lie"

Any help figuring out this puzzle would be much appreciated. I have been scouring Harvard's 1954 map of the area (https://iiif.lib.harvard.edu/manifests/view/ids:2402874) without much luck so far. 

[ongindo]

fwiw: I personally only have introductory-level 普通话 skills, and my family's 閩南語 abilities are very weak; the result of generations of Chinese cultural suppression by Indonesian authorities. I am now realizing that 'Lie' in "Tjan Lie" could possibly mean 里.

[philiptancl]

Hi Ongindo,

Just send you a personal message through this Forum regarding your search.

[ongindo]

Thank you, Mr. Tan. I have received your message and replied.

I have recently discovered that 角 is pronounced as "kak" in MinNan. And both 買 & 賣 are pronounced similar to "bwe".  For reasons related to the aforementioned Van Ophuijsen spelling system, it seems very possible they would have spelled POJ "bōe"/"bǒe" as bwe: boe in Van Ophuijsen would be understood to sound more like "bu".

All three of 角, 買 & 賣 seem reasonably associated with market concepts.  I suspect there may be other candidate characters, but this might help with the "KAKBWE" mystery.

If anyone knows of a market near Longhai with similar names I would be much obliged.

[ongindo]

Some more 'kak' candidates: 角 桷 鵤 埆 菊 覺

[ongindo]

I emailed this query to an old friend who I thought might be able to help and she seems to have nailed it on the first try.

KAKBWE has to mean 角美 and HOE SHOA probably means 后山, which we can easily find near 角美, on the north side of the Jiulong River: goo.gl/maps/8NJvwhnkY4tB4U6R8

This area certainly falls within the old 龙溪县.

[ongindo]

I have begun to suspect that "Tjan Lie" is 田里村, which is very near the old market area of 角美镇 and 田里村 apparently has a reputation for being one of the old villages.

If that's the case, I still can't make sense of "Hoe Shoa". I am very certain 田里村 is very different today than it was 225 years ago, but baidu says this: 下辖地区 田里.满尾.龙士.恒苍4个自然村

I am not currently convinced any of those could reasonably be understood to be "Hoe Shoa", "Hu Soa", or anything else that sounds remotely like that.

[Henry]

ongindo,

Here is a link & map to:


Tianlicun
田里村
Longhai City, Zhangzhou, Fujian
China


www.google.com/maps/place/Tianlicun,+Longhai+City,+Zhangzhou,+Fujian,+China/@24.5331603,117.8892872,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x34147da085884e67:0x5b0cac75fed8dfd7!8m2!3d24.533161!4d117.898042?hl=en





You may want to contact the local Foreign & Overseas Chinese Affairs Office to follow up on any possible village genealogy books that may contain your family lineage. They do not usually charge for their services.

Henry