Looking for ancestors villagers

[j]

Hi Henry,

This is the clearest photo I have. If you or someone could direct me to extend my search, I would really appreciate it.
Thank you.

J

[jdu]

Hi Henry,

I was wondering if you have any information regarding the Chan family in the Shuntak (Shunde) region? I returned to Singapore recently to try and locate my grandfather's burial record without success. I contacted every government department I could think of with my enquiries whilst I was there.
He was buried at Kwong Wai Siew Peck San Theng in Singapore back in 1941. His body was exhumed and cremated in the 1970's-80's, so I have no idea when he was born, however, I have his death date. I have been trying to do some research to locate his ancestral village but my family details are very limited. I have attached a clearer photo from my recent trip.

Thank you in advance.

Attachments:

[Henry]

jdu,

The My China Roots website has 2 Chen zupus for Shuntak:

www.mychinaroots.com/search/zupus?clan_name=%E9%99%B3&ancestral_place_id=50&tab=sources

I believe the second Chen zupu might have your grandfather's lineage - it was published in 1922 and has 1258 pages.



If you have the Chinese characters for your grandfather's name - you can search it.


In the previous message from "j" he was also looking for his grandfather's village & he was a Chen from Shuntak.

www.mychinaroots.com/zupus/45aa5329-f120-45a0-8074-ea2ebb0411b2/viewer?search=%E8%B2%B4%E6%A6%AE&page=1

In this zupu, I made a match on his grandfather's name 陳貴榮







Henry

[jdu]

Hi Henry,

Thank you for your prompt reply. It is much appreciated. My grandfather passed away when my father was only 13 years old and my father, unfortunately, pass away last year. So I am the "bridge" to make connections to relatives (if any) in China and to pass on information for future generations in Australia.

I just watched your inspirational Youtube video on "Chinese Genealogy without Having to Know Chinese" as I also fall in the same category.

I have a few more enquiries that I hope you can assist me with.

Are the characters of my grandfather's name written in classical Chinese in the book?

Do you know the name of the progenitor of the Chan clan in Shunde?

Are there organisations in Australia who can assist individuals to travel and locate ancestral villages?

Thanking you.

[Henry]

jdu,

I am Chinese illiterate, but, the Chinese characters for your grandfather's name & the Shuntak Chen zupu appear to be "traditional" Chinese characters, also, since it was published in 1922, it would be "traditional" as the "simplified" Chinese characters were not prominent until after 1949.

"Classical" Chinese is a poetic form of Chinese writing used by Chinese scholars and most Chinese cannot understand it.

The name of the Shuntak Chen progenitor is on the first page of the zupu: www.mychinaroots.com/zupus/45aa5329-f120-45a0-8074-ea2ebb0411b2/viewer?search=%E8%B2%B4%E6%A6%AE&page=1

The progenitor of the Chen clan of Guangdong province is Chen Feng Tai, my dear friend Dr. Philip Tan is the moderator of the Chen clan thread: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/thread/845/chen-tan-chan-chin-clan?page=1

For additional sources in Australia: www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Chinese_in_Australia

In Australia, I believe the most knowledgeable Chinese Australian researcher is Dr. Kate Bagnall [ [e-mail] ] & I believe Kate has organized visits to China from Australia.

Usually, I also organize trips to China to help Chinese Americans visit their ancestral villages. The pandemic has stopped that for the past 3 years, however, I am planning to have a China trip in April 2024 and we would be visiting ancestral villages. But, with all the geopolitical tensions regarding the possible armed conflict over the invasion of Taiwan by China may result in the cancellation of this trip. But, if you want to join my group, you can meet the group in either Beijing or Guangzhou, depending upon the Tour Segment you choose. My announcement is too large to attach & my DropBox is having issues. Please contact me directly if you want the itinerary at: "[e-mail]"

Henry

[FayChee]

Hi Henry,

Is it possible to find Xinqiaotou Shangcun (a Tan/Tom Village) on a map. I was told that this is the new name for Tong'anli, Kaiping County. This was written on my sister's Tombstone as where she and her husband, Ming Sing Tam built their house in 1945. It should be about 3 miles away from my sister's village in Chaoyangli, Chishui Town.

[Henry]

Hi Fay Chee,

Xinqiaotou:



www.google.com/maps/place/Xinqiaotou,+Kaiping,+Jiangmen,+Guangdong+Province,+China,+529385/@22.1454255,112.5721646,14z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x36aa0aa2b36454ef:0x768e7b78e761f01f!8m2!3d22.14159!4d112.60875!16s%2Fg%2F1tg_db1c?authuser=0&entry=ttu

Chaoyang:



www.google.com/maps/place/Chaoyang,+Kaiping,+Jiangmen,+Guangdong+Province,+China,+529385/@22.1382815,112.5902317,15z/data=!4m15!1m8!3m7!1s0x36aa0aa2b36454ef:0x768e7b78e761f01f!2sXinqiaotou,+Kaiping,+Jiangmen,+Guangdong+Province,+China,+529385!3b1!8m2!3d22.14159!4d112.60875!16s%2Fg%2F1tg_db1c!3m5!1s0x36aa0b29cdf1ef3b:0xe11b00a4660935c!8m2!3d22.13059!4d112.57416!16s%2Fg%2F11r8cpn7yr?authuser=0&entry=ttu

Distance between Xinqiaotou and Chaoyang is approximately 3 miles




www.google.com/maps/dir/Xinqiaotou,+Kaiping,+Jiangmen,+Guangdong+Province,+China,+529385/Chaoyang,+Kaiping,+Jiangmen,+Guangdong+Province,+China,+529385/@22.1386185,112.5697131,14z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x36aa0aa2b36454ef:0x768e7b78e761f01f!2m2!1d112.60875!2d22.14159!1m5!1m1!1s0x36aa0b29cdf1ef3b:0xe11b00a4660935c!2m2!1d112.57416!2d22.13059!4e1?authuser=0&entry=ttu




Henry

[FayChee]

Thank you so much for the maps Henry! We are getting some family questions answered now! I am in contact with more lost family on my sister's side and more stories are told about adoptions.

My sister's adopted a son before coming to the USA in 1948. He stayed in China with her mom and didn't come to the USA until 2006. He was found on the roadside by this Tan/Tam Village where she built the home. But due to the Landlord Reform movement, was forced to flee and leave her home for good.

On another note, I have a question about my adopted brother Yin Pui, in the 2018 Situ Zupu, two characters are on the left of his name, but Google Translates them as Tan Shi.....is this the word for adoption? If not, what are the characters in the Zupu for adopted???

Thank a million times over for the maps and your help Henry.

Fay Chee

[Henry]

Hi Fay Chee,

So glad I could help.

Tan Shi is the Tan clan - set next to the name probably indicates that he was adopted from the Tan clan.

My maternal grandfather was adopted - in the older 1937 copy of the Lee Zupu, the annotation said that he was the son of a man, who was the brother of the man who adopted him. But, in the 2018 Taishan Lee 7 volume bookset - there is nothing mentioned about his adoption. Since this larger Taishan county Lee bookset is a compilation of zupus for probably 500 Lee villages - they did not include the annotation to try & keep the bookset at a manageable size, whereas, in the Lee genealogy for just several Lee villages that included my maternal grandfather's village, they had annotations with much more details.

This is why I always advise people to try and get hold of the actual village genealogy book - which would have all the details.

Henry

[FayChee]

Hi Henry, thank you for clarifying the meaning of those two characters. My dad's grandmother was a Tan, and perhaps she choose my dad's adopted son Yin Pui, to carry on my dad's branch of Szeto's.

Thank you again!

Fay Chee

[gckimm]

Hi Fay Chee and Henry:

Tom Shee (Tan Shi) is a reference to the wife of Yin Pui. The use of 氏 here is the traditional custom of referring to married women by their own surname (maiden name) + 氏 (literally, "clan"). This looks like part of a more modern, printed genealogy. More modern genealogies have different formatting than the old handwritten genealogies and tend to contain mostly charts. With this new formatting, the names of wives often end up just somewhere near the husband's name, as in this example. The key is to look for the 氏 character--and be careful, because some ancestors had more than one wife!

If this had been a reference to the biological family from which Yin Pui had been adopted, there would have been a specific note to that effect.

Greg

[Henry]

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the clarification.

Please forgive my illiteracy of Chinese & misleading Fay Chee & accept my apology.

Henry

[FayChee]

Hi Henry,

I thought those two characters stood for 'Adopted' and unfortunately, I probably told someone in the past that it meant adopted.

So Tan Shi refers to Yin Pui's wife......after looking at my family tree chart, his wife's name is Tam Shui Tim, so I guess Tam and Tan are the same.

I still don't know where 'adopted' is noted in the 2018 Seto Zupu. Maybe it isn't. Perhaps the older 2 Zupu books mentioned it when Philip made the charts for me around 2012.

Thank you,

Fay Chee

[FayChee]

Hi GCKimm,

Thank you for clarifying the meaning of Tan Shi next to my adopted brother's name. I was using those 2 characters to find other's who were adopted in our tree in the 2018 Seto Zupu. Upon checking the family tree chart that Philip Tan had made for me around 2012 (from 2 old Zupus I acquired from the Situ Library), my brother's wife is named Tam Shui Tim. Now I know that Tan is Tam and Tom.

Thank you for helping me.

Fay Chee

[Henry]

Hi Fay Chee,

Several romanizations for the Tan Clan [ 譚 / 谭 ]: see rank 56

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_Chinese_surnames

"Tan" is the official Pinyin romanization, however, "Tan" is the Min Nan romanization for the "Chen" [ 陳 / 陈 ] rank # 5

Our dear friend Philip Tan is from the "Chen" clan.

I always refer to the Chinese character for a Chinese surname.

Henry