Leung family research - Kaiping area

[ivymantled]

Hi,
I'm trying to find any information I can about my father's family who originated in China.

PATERNAL GREAT GRANDFATHER
Leung Fong Ying or Leung Fong Ngen - an incense maker
Lived - Hoiping/Kaiping area

PATERNAL GREAT GRANDMOTHER
Fong Yuen
Lived - Hoiping/Kaiping area

GRANDFATHER
Birth name - Leung Chel Hung
Courtesy name - Leung Nam Eng
Date of birth - August 1st 1891
Place of birth - Tun Mei village in Hoiping/Kaiping area

MATERNAL GREAT GRANDFATHER
Jui Jek

GRANDMOTHER
Name - Jui Toi Kui
Date of Birth - 1906
Place of birth - Maogong Village, Hoiping/Kaiping area

Some of my family went to the ancestral village but have since lost touch with the relatives they met there.
Emails have gone unanswered for a decade or so.
They took photos and I've attached some of them in case it helps identify the place they went.
I've also attached a family tree segment that might help

[gckimm]

Hi:

In order to give you any assistance, we need the Chinese characters for the names and places you have mentioned. If you have access to the graves of your ancestors, the headstones may have the names and villages inscribed there. If your family still has written correspondence with China relatives, return addresses on envelopes would also be helpful.

Greg

[ivymantled]

Hi Greg,
Thanks very much for your reply.

Unfortunately at the moment the only written information I have are what I am told are documents relating to my Grandfather building or buying a property in the Hoiping/Kaiping area and the ownership since then.

Do you know if these are of any use?

[gckimm]

Hi:

The documents were helpful. The names you gave were based on the pronunciation in Hoiping (Sze Yup/Siyi). The names in standard Cantonese are slightly different. Here is what I was able to glean from the documents:

Your grandfather Leung Chel Hung = Cantonese Leung Chiu Tung 梁超桐
Tun Mei Village = Cantonese Chuen Mei Village 寸美里, formerly located in Second District, Luen Kai Township, Hoiping County 開平縣第二區聯溪鄉
(This village does not appear in the Village Database.)

The present address of this village may be 廣東省江門市開平市赤坎鎮新聯管區寸美村 (Mandarin Cunmei Village, Xinlian Administrative District, Chikan Town, Kaiping City, Jiangmen City, Guangdong Province). This is the only Chuen Mei/Cunmei Village I can find in Hoiping, so I am hopeful this is the correct location, even though all the other names have changed.

If you don't mind spending the money, you could hire My China Roots to do a search for you in China.

Best of luck!

Greg

[ivymantled]

Greg I can't thank you enough! That is some very valuable information that is going to go a long way to helping me track down locations and distant relatives.
You've made a real difference in our family's life with this.

[ivymantled]

Could I ask one more favour Greg.
I can't find the modern location of Cunmei that you suggested - when I search using Google Maps.
Are you able to help pinpoint the location on Google Maps or some other map resource by any chance?

Thanks so much again

 

[LJ]

Hi ivymantled,

At Baidu Maps, Google Maps, and OpenStreetMap, I searched for 廣東省江門市開平市赤坎鎮新聯管區寸美村. I was able to find it at Baidu Maps (https://j.map.baidu.com/0d/idfi).

At Google Maps, I got several results including places that included the place name 新聯 / Xinlian, but none of them were 寸美(https://www.google.com/maps/search/%E5%BB%A3%E6%9D%B1%E7%9C%81%E6%B1%9F%E9%96%80%E5%B8%82%E9%96%8B%E5%B9%B3%E5%B8%82%E8%B5%A4%E5%9D%8E%E9%8E%AE%E6%96%B0%E8%81%AF%E5%AF%B8%E7%BE%8E%E6%9D%91/@22.3506341,112.5944885,12z/data=!3m1!4b1?entry=ttu).

And at OpenStreetMap, I did not get any results for 廣東省江門市開平市赤坎鎮新聯管區寸美村, but when I searched just for 寸美, I got a result (https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8128044310).

I hope this helps.

LJ

[ivymantled]

Ah thank you!
I really appreciate the time and generosity I've experienced here.
I hope I can return the favour in some way at some point.

[LJ]

No problem, ivymantled! I'm glad to help.

LJ

[jasonwu]

Hi everyone,

I found a father 芬源 Fon Yin/Ngen and son 超雄 Chel Hung (same pronunciation as 超桐 Chel Hung in local dialect) on a page pertaining to 寸美村 Tun Mei Village in the 2008 Leung Genealogy of Hoiping (Volume 5, page 239, source: www.mychinaroots.com/source/5fbcc9c8-2c5a-4b93-bc6a-b243b1811327/viewer?page=1008). 

A number of the village's men in the 92nd generation do indeed use 桐 Hung as the last character in their given names, but for some reason the book records that 超雄 Chel Hung and his brother 捷雄 Chit Hung instead use the homophonous character 雄 Hung - however, large-scale genealogies commonly contain pronunciation errors since the editors rely on verbal information as well as written. Unfortunately, the publication doesn't link 芬源 Fon Yin/Ngen to the village progenitor, so the family tree has a broken link. Hope this helps you get closer to your goal, though.

-Jason

[LJ]

Great find, Jason! The top of 2008 Leung Genealogy of Hoiping, Volume 5, page 239 that you attached listed two additional location names, 沙溪 (Shaxi) and 大川村 (Dachuan Village). I was able to find each location at one or more of the map websites, Baidu Maps, Google Maps, and OpenStreetMap:

Location name	Baidu Maps	Google Maps	OpenStreetMap
沙溪 (Shaxi)		maps.app.goo.gl/MaDZ1E98vvANRgtQ7
沙溪(村) [Shaxi(cun) or Shaxi (Village)]	j.map.baidu.com/56/Wrc	maps.app.goo.gl/zDEfNkZWfgwY8vdF6	www.openstreetmap.org/node/8128044312
大川 (Dachuan)	j.map.baidu.com/64/2ofi		www.openstreetmap.org/node/8128044463

Also, looking at Baidu and OpenStreetMap maps for 沙溪 (Shaxi) and 大川 (Dachuan), I saw 寸美 (Cunmei) to the northeast of them (https://j.map.baidu.com/38/Gffi, www.openstreetmap.org/node/8128044310), although Baidu labeled it as 沙溪寸美 (Shaxi Cunmei).

Comparing the ancestral names on page 289 of the Leung genealogy and the names that ivymantled provided in the initial post of this thread, I may have found a discrepancy. In the genealogy, the name of 芬源 (Fon Yin/Ngen)'s wife is 周氏 (Chow/Zhou maiden name), but in the post, the name of ivymantled's paternal great-grandmother is Fong Yuen.

Hi ivymantled,

One way to resolve this discrepancy is to get photographs of your paternal great-grandparents Leung Fong Ying/Ngen's and Fong Yuen's grave monuments. Will you be able to obtain photos of their graves? The Chinese-language documents that you provided are slightly too blurry for me to make out any names.

Getting photos of your paternal grandparents Leung Chel Hung/Nam Eng's and Jui Toi Kui's graves would also be great.

Cheers!
LJ

[jasonwu]

Nice catch, LJ -

It is weird that the genealogy records 芬源 Fon Yin's wife as maiden name 周氏 Jiu while family records have it as Fong Yuen. There could be several possibilities:

1. It wasn't uncommon for men to have multiple spouses, whether simultaneously or consecutively (if one passed) - could 芬源 Fon Yin have had 2 wives?

2. Great-grandmother's name Fong Yuen sounds suspiciously like Great-grandfather's name 芬源 Fon Yin - could it be an erroneous duplicate in family records?

3. 超桐 Chel Hung's wife was Jiu Toi Kui, could the genealogy have put "maiden name 周氏 Jiu" in the wrong place? (i.e. erroneously next to father 芬源 Fon Yin instead of next to son 超雄 Chel Hung).

4. I could have identified the wrong family in the genealogy.

All are speculations at the moment, but could be clarified by images of headstones, like LJ suggests.

It does seems that present-day 沙溪寸美 Sha Xi Cun Mei is the village we should be looking at. I looked at the location on China's official digital mapping service (https://map.tianditu.gov.cn/2020/) and the villages labeled surrounding it are mentioned in sequence in the 2008 Leung Genealogy of Hoiping as well as the 1933 Gazetteer of Hoiping (link). Here's the location on Google Maps Satellite (maps.app.goo.gl/oBLBAfAsLzH4JhEX8).

I'm almost certain that Jiu Toi Kui's birthplace Maogong is what the VillageDB calls Mow Kong Heung (villagedb.friendsofroots.org/display.cgi/heung/359), a township with dozens of 周 Jiu/Chow villages. Here's the Google Maps location Mao Gang (maps.app.goo.gl/gh4L5oBGAvpLqLEc8).

Regarding the images in the initial post, I recognize the yellow stucco building as the Guan Clan Library (link) and the archway as the entrance to the Chikan Ancient Town Movie & Television Town (link), which makes me think the following two images are of purpose-built structures within the Movie & Televsion Town (built for a film set, evident with the vintage car in front of the mansion). All of these are in the historic 赤坎鎮 Chikan Town across the river to the north of 寸美 Tun Mei Village, which has been revamped and made a ticketed attraction in recent years.

-Jason

[ivymantled]

WOW!

Just WOW!

I'm blown away by what each of you has been able to unearth, and the time you've spent.

There's so much to take in that I need to go through it carefully, one item of information at a time.

THANK YOU a million times for something that I would not have been able to achieve myself.

But before I do that, I can tell you that I don't have any photos or access to the grave stones or markers of my great grandparents in China. My Grandfather left China in 1913, returning various times to marry, buy some property, and have some children. But he always returned to Rabaul, New Guinea where he was working as a carpenter. In 1937 he brought his wife, son and daughter out to join him, and then the war years created a break in the connection to home - and he never went back.

My Grandfather is buried in New Guinea and my Grandmother here in Australia, where our branch of the Leung diaspora now live.

I'll go through all that you've shared and reply as soon as possible.

[ivymantled]

Hi Jason,
Can i please ask a few questions:

1. Regarding this document, are the other people in the same branch also direct relatives? 



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2. Regarding this information:
'A number of the village's men in the 92nd generation do indeed use 桐 Hung as the last character in their given names, but for some reason the book records that 超雄 Chel Hung and his brother 捷雄 Chit Hung...'

As far as I know Leung Chel Hung (Granddad) had two brothers and one sister. I'm wondering if you can guess which brother Chit Hung is from the info below:
• Chel Hung's older brother died during Japanese occupation while a young man - we don't know anything else about him.
   DoB, birth name, adult name, date he died, etc.
• Chel Hung's older sister Ten Hai married a farmer from Si Chin Village called Wong Gau.
• Chel Hung's younger brother was born Leung Dep Hung, later changing it to Leung Nam Jung.
   He married a woman called Gun Yu and had a son, but died in the war years - cause unknown.
   In 1985 his son Ah Lok was still living in the home my Grandfather built in Cunmei (Tun Mei).

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3. Regarding this:
    'It is weird that the genealogy records 芬源 Fon Yin's wife as maiden name 周氏 Jiu while family records have it as Fong Yuen...'

    One answer to this might be that we've listed her married surname, because whoever started the family tree didn't know her maiden name.

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4. Do you know of any online resource for headstones and grave markers in China?
    If not I might look into hiring someone on the ground there to visit and see if they can find anything.

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5. Regarding this:
I'm almost certain that Jiu Toi Kui's birthplace Maogong is what the VillageDB calls Mow Kong Heung (villagedb.friendsofroots.org/display.cgi/heung/359), a township with dozens of 周 Jiu/Chow villages. Here's the Google Maps location Mao Gang (maps.app.goo.gl/gh4L5oBGAvpLqLEc8).

This is new information and really exciting. We've always had snippets of info about Chel Hung's village, but the whereabouts of Toi Kui's was a mystery - we only had vague stories of having to cross streams and climb some elevated land to reach it.

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6. Thanks for identifying the location of those photos - which are close by the Cun Mei village you've tagged as the most likely location.

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7. I've read about a document called a Zupu or Jiapu that some Chinese families hand down, listing the names and notable events.
    Is the 2008 Leung Genealogy of Hoiping a version of this? Or is something like that unlikely for a family with a peasant background?

[jasonwu]

Hi ivymantled,

Great questions - I'll do my best to try and answer what I can:

1. & 2. Your neon green highlighter encircles the family of 超雄/桐 Chel Hung's brother, whose name I wrote previously as 捷雄/桐 Chit Hung per Cantonese pronunciation, but would be dialectically pronounced like 捷雄/桐 Dep Hung how you've recorded it. His wife's maiden name is 关/關氏 Guan/Kwan/Gan, which you have recorded as Gun. His son is 昂列 Ong Let (Lok?), and grandsons are 紹良 Siao Liang, 紹基 Siao Ghee, 紹儀 Siao Ngei, and 紹堅 Siao Ghen. His older brother might not be recorded because he died before marriage, and his sister would've been from a generation when names of daughters were commonly omitted from genealogical records, so she doesn't show up either (due to gender equality and China's One Child Policy in more recent times, daughters tend to be included in modern publications).

4. FindAGrave.com and BillionGraves.com are mostly for English-speaking countries, so I don't have any databases to recommend for Chinese Mainland burials, especially because in the countryside, people aren't buried in regulated cemeteries - they are allowed designated hillside burial areas instead. I'd strongly suggest using a field researcher, just make sure to negotiate expectations for what you're paying (Do you want a written report? Just videos and photos? Etc.) In Hoiping, it's common that several generations of ancestors' names are recorded on a home's ancestral altar, so there's a chance that you might receive a photo showing more names beyond 芬源 Fon Yin.

5. 茅岡鄉 Mow Kong Heung is indeed upstream from Chikan Town and Tun Mei Village.

7. I commonly use the term genealogy as an English translation for the terms 家譜 jiapu "family records" and 族譜 zupu "clan records" you've mentioned - so you are correct, the 2008 publication is a 族譜 zupu. Before the 1950's Land Reforms, 89.72% of China's population were of peasant background (source: National Bureau of Statistics via Wikipedia), but regardless of a family's economic standing, the patriarchal nature of Southern Chinese villages encouraged mass genealogical records of people with the same ancestry, though the recording task might've been taken on by more learned individuals within the clan. That's to say, everyone gets included, but some might get more attention in these records.