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Post by Henry on Dec 20, 2008 20:32:56 GMT -5
Dear Colleagues,
Welcome to this new subject and I have volunteered to server as the Moderator and I hope you will join in and share your knowledge.
Clan Progenitor References:
The names of clan ancestors at the province, county, and town levels are very useful as nodes for linking clan lineages.
Background:
During the Song Dynasty ( 960-1279 ), there was a royal decree for when the first member of a clan and/or his descendants settled in a new place, he would be designated as the progenitor of the clan at that location; hence, this is why the progenitor of a clan, say at the provincial level would be established. This has been followed within genealogy books at various levels within the geographic hierarchy, for example, at the county, town, and even village level.
As we overseas Chinese start to seek our Chinese lineages: family lineage book (jiapu) and clan lineage book (zupu), we begin to see that many of the older genealogy books only trace back 30 or so generations to the progenitor, the forefather ancestor of our particular clan at the provincial level. Obviously, our lineages trace back much further than just 30 plus generations. Only recently, we are seeing published zupus that attempt to trace their clan lineages all the way back to Huang Di (Yellow Emperor ).
A jiapu at the village level may only trace back to the progenitor of the village or trace back to the clan progenitor at the provincial level. Jiapus and zupus between the village and the provincial level, will start confirming that there are additional progenitor ancestors at the town and county levels.
The purpose of identifying these clan progenitor ancestors (references ) is to provide nodes that can be used to link family jiapu branches into the overall structure of the clan lineage hierarchy from village all the way up to and across the national level. This enables people to link clan lineages at various levels and to trace back thousands of years.
As a Moderator, I would like to invite members of various surname clans to serve as specific Clan moderators for various clans. Hence, I volunteer to serve also as the Tan Clan moderator and invite other Forum members such as Philip Tan to serve as the Chen Clan moderator. Each of the Clan moderators will initiate specific "threads" dedicate to that particular surname clan.
I encourage you to read all the threads because there will be generic information that will be applicable to your own particular clan.
There is clan specific expertise necessary and I am asking each of the Clan moderators to post the hierarchical framework of the progenitors for their specific clan and their role will be to facilitate discussions about how to populate this framework within the context of lineage resources that all Forum members are willing to share.
I hope that this initiative will enable people working on their lineages to progress in linking further back and across all levels, learn from the mutual discussions, and share information.
Henry Tom
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Post by philiptancl on Dec 22, 2008 1:15:15 GMT -5
Hi Henry,
Thank you for inviting me to be the Chén (陳/陈) Clan moderator. Being the baby in this Forum (joined only in June 2008) and just caught the Chinese genealogy bug only in August 2008 after meeting you in Kuala Lumpur, I am wondering whether I should be the one best suited to play that role. If there is no objection from other members from this Forum, I shall post and start the Chén Clan thread in a few days time. Let me organize the first posting.
Philip Tan
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Post by Ah Gin on Dec 22, 2008 6:01:34 GMT -5
Henry,
With the indulgence of other forum members old and young I will volunteer to be the Gin Clan (甄) Moderator.
After the festive season I will start a thread on the Gin Clan, with a brief introduction etc. and over time progressively add the names of our Clan Progenitors at various level. As can be appreciated, names of the the Clan Progenitors without context can be confusing.
If this project is successful, and there is little reason why not, the results will be very useful to all new travellers in this wonderful world of "In Search Of Roots".
Regards, Ah Gin
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Post by Henry on Dec 22, 2008 8:10:14 GMT -5
Dear Philip & Ah Gin, Philip - thank you for your kind and very considerate reply and for your willingness to moderate and facilitate this Chen Clan thread within the new subject "Clan Progenitor References". If there is anyone else that would like to co-moderate the Chen Clan, you are warmly invited to participate. I believe that while Philip may be new to Chinese genealogy and to the Forum, he has demonstrated that he is willing to share his Chen lineage information, please see the lineage Philip compiled that was posted by xuangxing: siyigenealogy.proboards28.com/index.cgi?board=names&action=display&thread=752&page=3Ah Gin - Thank you for your valuable participation as the Gin Clan Moderator. We are well aware of your many contributions in helping Forum members and are indeed fortunate to also have your Chinese language skills. As it is just a couple days before the Christmas / New Year holidays - I do not expect too see any introductions and postings from the individual Clan moderators until after the Holidays. If there are others that would like to serve as a Clan Moderator - please let us know - your clan members will greatly appreciate your facilitation. To all Forum members, we all wish you and your families a most Merry Christmas and a very safe, healthy, prosperous, and Happy New Year ! Henry
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Post by Henry on Dec 27, 2008 11:03:11 GMT -5
Dear Colleagues,
As this is a new subject with several threads, each dedicated to a particular surname clan and under the stewardship of a Clan Moderator - I encourage everyone to read the posts for the other threads also. Much of what you will see and learn from the other clan threads will certainly help you with your lineages.
I believe it is definitely the intent of all the Clan Moderators to raise the overall level of all Forum members with regard to clan surname lineage expertise .
Henry
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Post by Henry on Jan 6, 2009 9:03:50 GMT -5
Dear Woodson, Ben & Joe,
Thank you for your willingness to serve as Clan Moderators. Your contributions will be very useful and helpful to members of your clan.
Woodson - please annotate the names of some of the places in the Lee lineage and identify the possible Lee clan progenitor references.
Ben & Joe - you are so fortunate to have a copy of your family/clan genealogy book that has been recently published. Many of the older family/clan genealogy books only trace back to the Clan progenitor of the village, county, or province - around 30 plus generations. But, in your case, you can trace back an additional 110 generations back to Huang Di (Yellow Emperor) - awesome.
For the Huang clan - having the clan progenitor references for the various places and counties within Guangdong province will be wonderful. If possible, you may want to identify the Huang clan progenitors for just the other provinces in China - then people would know from which province their particular lineage originates from.
I notice that some of the newer family/clan genealogy books are being re-compiled and updated by committees of clan experts and they have done all the very difficult research and resolved many of the discrepancies and extended the lineage all the way back to Huang Di - wow.
Even for my own Tan clan - I spent the last 3 years doing some really excruciating research to get within 50 generations of the Tan lineage to Huang Di, however, this last lineage segment was made available in a 3 volume 1800 page Tan genealogy/history book set that was published a year ago - I now have it all. The translations are not yet complete - but, soon.
Henry
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Post by Henry on Jan 18, 2009 8:20:23 GMT -5
Dear Ben & Philip,
I would like to add my comments about the veracity of the early lineages that trace back to Huang Di, the Yellow Emperor.
Most of my own copies of Tan genealogy books trace back to Tan Hong Zhi, the Tan clan progenitor for Guangdong province. Some of these copies are quite old, but, it seems that some of the genealogy books that have published since around year 2000 - trace back to the Yellow Emperor.
Now, I am not sure of the validity of these clan lineage that trace way back to the Yellow Emperor - because, is this just wishful thinking ? Or, is this really true - as most Han Chinese claim to be descended from the Yellow Emperor. Can this also be a marketing device to sell more copies of the genealogy book?
Recently, for the Tan clan - there have been some Tan clan genealogy meetings involving Tan clan genealogy experts from a 100 plus cities and counties that have convened for several days to work out the Tan clan lineage. The most definitive source for Tan clan genealogy is from a 3 volume set of 1800 pages that took a committee of 20 plus Tan clan genealogy experts over 6 years to compile. The amount of historical coverage and degree of detail is quite convincing and it is able to resolve many of the discrepancies that all clan genealogies seem to have - because they have been copied and many errors have been carried forward.
So it seems that if some of the newer clan genealogies have been based upon sustained research - then these lineages to the Yellow Emperor may be truly authentic. Then the challenge for some of us - especially in the case of the Chen clan where there are branches to other clans - to resolve discrepancies that might turn up between the clan lineages to the Yellow Emperor.
This effort here on our Forum may be the first attempt to reconcile discrepancies between clan lineages that trace back to the Yellow Emperor - isn't this exciting and fun? I love it !
I am glad to see this cross clan lineage integration by our clan moderators - I have a feeling that this is pioneering research that will be used as a basis for other clan genealogy research.
Henry
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Post by benclee on Jan 19, 2009 1:20:56 GMT -5
Dear Henry,
Thanks for your insight. At this point I may only need to acknowledge and state that there are uncertainties in the lineage for these early ancestors. Of course, we may never truly know the total authenticity of our lineage, but it is fun having that connect to Huang Di.
At some point I will list the lineage from Huang Di as shown in my zupu and offer it as another version for others to consider and study in hopes of further resolving discrepancies.
Anyway this forum is more focused on Guangdong/Siyi and a much more modern time period. It's a scope of time and history that has more reliable information and therefore is much more manageable and less controversial.
I agree with you, it's interesting to see how the different surnames interact. There are lots of common lessons to learn and probably some interesting and unique connections that can be made between the surnames.
Ben
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Post by philiptancl on Jan 19, 2009 22:25:19 GMT -5
For the benefit for others who only follow this Moderator thread, I am reposting below part of what I had just posted in the Chen thread of this section.
Dear Ben,
I can see that you has also caught this genealogy bug after visiting your ancestral village and lucky enough to obtain your Huang clan zupu from there that traces your ancestry all the way back to Huang Di. Believe you me; both you and I are the lucky ones where our ancestral village zupu can provide the information from the offset.
For the time being, never mind whatever discrepancies which you may find when comparing with other sources. As you dwelt deeper into your search on Huang surname genealogy, I am quite sure you would find other discrepancies as well and debates (in Chinese) on the matter. If you look at my second chart in another thread of this section , you will find the Progenitor for Tian is from different parentage depending upon the source I am quoting from. This is only one on the few that I had found out so far. A couple of others I mentioned elsewhere in the SiYi Forum and there are more. The debate I am having within myself is whether to quote and discuss the discrepancies from the various sources at this stage of SiYi Forum development or wait till the Forum has progress to even higher than the current level; the level that Henry has brought this Forum to with this Clan Progenitor References section. Originally I had wanted to post and discuss the discrepancies from numerous Chen zupu sources (I now have quite a few sources and I am still collecting) in the thread "Common Surname with Surname Chen" under Chinese Genealogy section. I have decided to slow and/or postpone that aspect of posting for the time being. My concern is that it may appear too daunting or confusing to new potential enthusiasts on genealogy who may be considering taking up this enjoyable journey of discovery on their pedigree lineage.
Philip
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Post by benclee on Jan 20, 2009 4:58:30 GMT -5
This is also repeated from the Chen thread of this forum thread.
Greetings Philip,
Yes, I definitely have caught the "bug". Like you and others I am also handicapped in not being literate in Chinese. It is a frustrating matter to have information in your hands, but not be able to understand it. I can see this endeavor will take a lot of patience and persistence. However, I do count myself as being quite fortunate to have a zupu with so much lineage information and it is such an interesting past time.
Thanks for your guidance and insight. I appreciate your views and I will proceed ahead with what I have as a baseline and then resolve discrepancies if any later.
I will check your personal message on the Huang books.
Ben Lee
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Post by Henry on Jan 28, 2009 14:37:02 GMT -5
Dear Philip & Xuangxing,
I would like to thank you both for all the hard work you have been doing in compiling this latest chart, posting it, explaining how to capture and how to post it - wow.
Judging by the number of views - over 450 views - people have been looking at the chart, however, nobody has commented on this fabulous chart that shows the cross clan lineage integration of 15 plus clans and their linkages with the Chen lineage from Huang Di, the Yellow Emperor. I must say that I have never had the good fortune to see such an informative chart anywhere except here. I hope everybody will realize what an exceptional chart this is.
Also, I know that Philip is busy, however, since the Lee/Li clan is such a major clan - I invite Philip to fill in the lineage and possibly post an image of the Lee progenitor when he is able. In fact, for any of the other surname clans that he has already identified in his chart. This chart is a fantastic reference chart that can be used by all the clans that have already been identified.
Henry
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Post by Henry on Feb 3, 2009 8:56:26 GMT -5
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Post by philiptancl on Feb 3, 2009 9:49:34 GMT -5
Dear Colleagues,
It is with the kind generosity of Henry in sharing his Chinese characters recognition software that I could complete his suggestion for filling in the Li lineage in such a short time. In the Li zongpu that I have, the Li lineage shown goes down to Generation 88; not just stop at Generation 28. Whilst I do not mind to fill in the rest of the Li lineage for the benefit of the readers of this SiY Forum, I think it will be more appropriate for the Lee Clan section to do so.
I wish to apologize that some of the photos are rather distorted. This was because the camera man that took those pictures for me did not direct his camera perpendicular to them. If there is a request, I could retake those photos again myself and repost them at a later date.
Philip
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Post by Henry on Feb 3, 2009 11:17:41 GMT -5
Dear Philip,
As you have all this amazing information from your ever expanding library of clan zupu(s) - and if it is not too much trouble for you at some later date - maybe you could add the lineage of the Lee/Li clan down to the Lee/Li progenitor for Guangdong province. Then, most Lee/Li clan members that do have a copy of their family / clan genealogy book that just goes up around just 30 generations to the Lee/Li clan progenitor for Guangdong province - they will have the rest of the 100 plus generations that goes up to Huang Di.
I am sure all the Lee clan members of and Lee / Li clan visitors to this Forum would be very grateful and indebted to you for helping them to recovery & reclaim their clan lineage.
Henry
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Post by Henry on Feb 14, 2009 7:43:53 GMT -5
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