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Post by xuangxing on Feb 25, 2009 9:54:25 GMT -5
The next posting for Chen/Tan/Chan/Chin (陈/陳) Clan thread would be the lineage from Chen Shi to Chen Hui and his seven sons ... ... I had just emailed Xuangxing for the posting. As there are many other Chen branches originating from Chen Shi, I shall be posting only those branches which I think are of interest to this Forum. I propose to post each branch one at a time. Philip's Fourth Chart (updated with an additional picture on Apr 9, 2009) is as follows: assets2.geni.com/media/p10/5010/5665/53444837f1ef4105/zuy72qer_original.jpg[/img]
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Post by philiptancl on Mar 4, 2009 10:43:21 GMT -5
Hello June,
From your postings at various threads in this Forum, your In-Law Chan is from Xinhui (新会) and you have pretty much located the ancestral village. If that is so it likely that your In-Law is descended from Chen Ying (陳英), the third son of Chen Hui (陳è¼). My guess is that your father-in-law would be somewhere between 24 to 27 generations counting from Chen Ying (陳英).
Once you obtain a copy of your zupu or jiapu from your ancestral village, then the fun would really begin especially when the zupu is not in the form of chart similar to those I had posted but tabulated in the order of generation number with names and their male sons listed. If that is so, then you need to locate your father-in-law’s name there or his father’s name. If would be less onerous if their generation number is known as well. In any case it would be quite a task even if you can read Chinese. I have heard of a case where the village headman was given US$100 to locate a certain name within a zupu and promised another US100 bonus if he could finally locate it. In that case, it was a success story.
Once you have located one of your In-Law names, it is a matter of tracking it backward. If the zupu is in tabulated form, then tracing the lineage backward is not so easy especially when do not read Chinese. If chart form you should be able to track backward without too much of a problem. It is just a matter of recognizing the Chinese character of each name as you go along.
After posting Chart 4 in Clan Progenitors References for the Chen/Chan/Tan ((陳/陈) thread, I have gone through the hard copies of my Chen zupus that I now have so far. I did find a Chen zupu from Si Yi (or Sze Yup as my genealogy Master Henry would call the region). It is from a village called Wencun (汶æ‘) in Taishan (å°å±±). The Progenitor is Chen KÇŽi (陳愷), the younger brother of Chen Ying (陳英). . The lineages given therein are in tabulated form and since I find it so difficult to follow without knowing Chinese myself, I had kept it aside until I "rediscover" it now. It would take too much of my time to reconstruct the whole zupu into charts form especially when Wencun (汶æ‘) is not my ancestral village. Since many Chinese from US/Australia/New Zealand originated from Si Yi, I just want readers of this Forum to know of its existence if there is really a need for anyone wishing to refer to it.
Philip
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Post by philiptancl on Apr 8, 2009 1:43:38 GMT -5
With additional information I had subsequently gathered I wanted to update a couple of the charts that I had already posted on the Forum. Also I have yet to compile for posting further charts to follow. There was quite some new information that came my way for digesting which kept me away from doing so. For Chart 4, I will just update it with an additional picture. For Chart 2, I will send Xuangxing a substantially revised chart (Posting 2R4) for him to post as a separate chart. As the spreadsheet is more than 20MB, I was not able to send it to him by email. I am trying another mean for him to access the file electronically. The revised chart will show the connection with more progenitors of other surnames. More prominently will be the connection with the progenitor of Lin/Lim/Lam/Ling (林). Of interest would be how the surname She (佘) came about. Date: Jan 3, 2010. I am posting the Chart "Link of Chén (陈/陳) Lineage with Progenitors of Surnames Huáng (黄), Lǐ (李), Yú (余), Tián (田) & Wáng (王) and Other Surnames Connected to Chén (陈) up to Generation 62 Counting from Huáng Dì (黄帝)" through the use of Geni website. The posting was done for me by Xuangxing previously. Lately I was honored to be contacted by Alex/June through email. I have been following her search for her husband’s Chen/Chan ancestry in the Forum with keen interest. Arising from her email contact, I had forwarded her some Chen/Chan lineage documents that could be relevant to her. These include a Chen/Chan zhongpu for which I have extra copy. I do not think she has yet to receive them but I hope they would be assistance to her on her search for her husband’s ancestry and be able to provide her with a better understanding of Chinese genealogy. June has yet to obtain a copy her husband ancestral village zupu even though she now has a copy of the ancestral village generation names. She sent mean a copy which was hand written. From what I could make out, the generation names is for descendants of the ancestor who moved from Nanxiong (南雄), Zhuji Xiang (珠矶巷) to Xinhui (新會), Jiangmen (江門). What I find interesting is that listed alongside the Fifth Generation (i.e. Generation Gong 公) is ”Bai Sha Xiansheng (白沙先生)”. From my own knowledge (actually it was gained from my brother-in-law who happened to be here in Malaysia) that Bai Sha Xiansheng was a prominent Chinese philosopher (1428 to 1500 AD). Someone from Taiwan had done his PhD research in US on his life and philosophy. Bai Sha Xiansheng translates into Mr White Sand and is the nickname of Chen Xian Zhang (陳獻章) as he hailed from Bai Sha (白沙) Village. So is Bai Sha (White Sand) the Pinyin equivalent of "Pak Sar" referred to by June in one of her previous posting? That posting is at: Re: Chen/Tan/Chan/Chin (陈/陳) Clan « Reply #20 on Feb 4, 2009, 4:24am » Maybe readers knowledgeable in the local dialect could assist. Sometimes comparing generation names between same surname’s clans from different villages of a region could assist in establishing the ancestral lineage. As I have converted June’s list of generation names into electronic form, I am wondering whether June would want me to post it on this Forum
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Post by xuangxing on Apr 9, 2009 3:34:53 GMT -5
With additional information I had subsequently gathered I wanted to update a couple of the charts that I had already posted on the Forum. Also I have yet to compile for posting further charts to follow. There was quite some new information that came my way for digesting which kept me away from doing so. For Chart 4, I will just update it with an additional picture. For Chart 2, I will send Xuangxing a substantially revised chart (Posting 2R4) for him to post as a separate chart. As the spreadsheet is more than 20MB, I was not able to send it to him by email. I am trying another mean for him to access the file electronically. The revised chart will show the connection with more progenitors of other surnames. More prominently will be the connection with the progenitor of Lin/Lim/Lam/Ling (林). Of interest would be how the surname She (佘) came about. This is the revised chart from Philip, posted as a new thread at his request. Note that the chart is big and that panning left and right is required to view the whole chart and that I have intentionally not reduced the size of the chart, as I had done in previous postings, specifically at Philip's request.
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June
Member
Posts: 70
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Post by June on Apr 14, 2009 4:59:04 GMT -5
Hello Philip
I have no problem with you posting the information to the site - It cannot possible be private and it may help someone else to place themselves and their ancestors and if it does we should all be able to gain from that.
I have been reading your postings and emails as well as those from Henry and hope to be in touch again soon.
Regards
June
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Post by philiptancl on Jul 7, 2009 0:21:27 GMT -5
When I started this thread, my original intention was to identify the Chen progenitors for as many ancestral villages in Fujian Province. After starting having started, it looked like I had strayed to Guangdong Chen down to Chen Hui and his seven sons which I had posted as "Reply #30 on Feb 25, 2009". Since that posting I have been doing some exploration on of the Guangdong Chen branch. In the process I was fortunate enough to locate the common ancestry for three other Chen/Chan/Chin/Tan (陳). The first one is my 16th cousin thrice removed from another state on Malaysia (this one is from the same ancestral village as I am). The second one is my 50th cousin four times removed from Boston. The third one is my 50th cousin thrice removed from New York. As a result of this connection the number of profiles quoted as over 2,200 mentioned in my "Reply #2 on Jan 8, 2009" at the following thread, in relation to our Geni.com tree, had increased to 6,335 profiles as of today. siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=software&action=display&thread=853I am in the process of trying to connect up with another two or three more. Henry suggested to me I should post in this thread what I had just posted in the thread below in response to John Chan query on generation poem: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=maps&action=display&thread=947&page=5I reproduced the translation from part of the preface from a zupu where my 50th cousin four times removed from Boston belongs to. The translation was done by my 50th cousin thrice removed from New York. The preface was written by the zupu compiler Chen Haifeng (陳海峰) dated 26th of June 1993. To read the Chinese characters, please click " View", " Encoding" and " Unicode (UTF-8)" " æˆ‘å˜—ç ”ç©¶é™³æ°ä¸–系,據æ·å²æ‰€è¼‰ï¼šé™³æ°å¤§èˆœç‚ºå§‹ç¥–,周æ¦çŽ‹å°èƒ¡å…¬æ»¿äºŽé™³ï¼Œåœ¨ä»Šæ²³å—é–‹å°åºœï¼ŒåŽäººèˆ‡é‚‘為姓。 I tried to do research on Chén 陳 genealogy. According to written historical records, Emperor Shun was the first ancestor of the Chén 陳 family. King Wu of Zhou (Chinese: 周æ¦çŽ‹; pinyin: zhÅu wÅ wáng) or King Wu of Chou confer the territory of Chén 陳 to Hugong Man 胡公满. The territory of Chén 陳 is in present day Kaifeng, Henan province. Later generations used the name of the territory Chén 陳 as the family name.
在漢桓å¸æ™‚陳實,å—仲弓,為太丘長,åé‡å¤©ä¸‹ï¼Œæ˜¯é™³æ°è¿‘祖,在廣州市有太丘書院。 Chen Shi 陳實 lived during the reign of Emperor Huan Di æ¡“å¸ (146 – 168 C.E.) of the Han Dynasty. His zì å— was 仲弓 ZhònggÅng. He became a very famous leader of the town of 太丘 Tà iqiÅ«. He is a Chén ancestor of the recent past. There is an academy of classical learning in Guangzhou called 太丘書院 Tà iqiÅ« Academy.
至宋æœé™³è¼ã€‚號鳳臺,為諫è°å¤§å¤«ï¼Œç”Ÿè¬¨ï¼Œå®£ï¼Œè‹±ï¼Œæ„·ï¼Œé–,圖,ä»ï¼ŒåŽŸä½å—雄ä¿æ˜Œç¸£æ²™æ°´æ‘ä¹çœ¼äº•ï¼Œç ç£¯å··ï¼Œå› é¿äº‚,兄弟七人率å侄廿八人逃亡,大難臨é å„分飛,謨至新會,宣至æ±èŽžï¼Œè‹±è‡³æ²–金,愷至汶æ‘,é–至潮州,圖至å¤å²¡ï¼Œä»è‡³æ¸…é 。 Chen Hui é™³è¼ lived during the Song Dynasty. His hà o 號 was Fèngtái 鳳臺. He was the official in charge of arbitration. He fathered Mó 謨, XuÄn 宣, YÄ«ng 英, KÇŽi æ„·, Rùn é–, Tú 圖, and Rén ä». He originally lived in ZhÅ«jÄ« ç ç’£ Lane in JiÇ”yÇŽn ä¹çœ¼ Court of the Village of ShÄshuÇ æ²™æ°´ in the District of BÇŽocháng ä¿é•· in the Prefecture of Nánxióng å—雄. Because of political unrest, the seven brothers together with their families (altogether 28 people) fled from home. When the great catastrophe arrived, everyone fled in different directions. Mó 謨 went to XÄ«nhuì 新會. XuÄn 宣 went to DÅngwÇŽn æ±èŽž. YÄ«ng 英 went to ChÅngjÄ«n 冲金. KÇŽi æ„· went to WèncÅ«n 汶æ‘. Rùn é– went to CháozhÅu 潮州. Tú 圖 went to GÇ”gÄng å¤å²¡. Rén ä» went to QÄ«ngyuÇŽn 清é .
ä¾æ“šå®‹è³¢é™³ç™½æ²™å…ˆç”Ÿæ‰€æ’°ä¹‹æ³•ç¥–派目: 藉鳳毓嘉秀,和敬發賢良, 文明應顯é”,è¬ä¸–永傳æšã€‚ A very talented Song Dynasty gentleman by the name of Chén Bái ShÄ é™³ç™½æ²™ created the following generation poem: Jà fèng yù jiÄ xiù, hé jìng fÄ xián liáng, Wén mÃng yÄ«ng xiÇŽn dá, wà n shì yÇ’ng chuan yang.
代代相連,以記輩數,由于æ—èœå¤±å‚³ï¼Œç„¡å¾žç¨½è€ƒï¼Œæ¬²å¾žé 整編,殊ä¸æ˜“為。 Because many genealogy books are lost, it is extremely difficult to ascertain with certainty who our ancestors were. To start from scratch would not be an easy task.
ä¹ä¸‰å¹´å››æœˆï¼Œå¾åˆä¾„葆真,由鄉回美,經港å°ä½ï¼Œèˆ‡å¾è«–編修æ—èœäº‹ï¼Œæ“šäº‘:「ç¾æœ‰ä¹‹æ—èœï¼ŒåŽŸå±¬æ‡‰å„€å›æ‰€çè—而整ç†ä¹‹ï¼ŒåˆæŠ„錄為副本,授予為åƒè€ƒä¹‹è³‡ï¼Œå¹¶å¥‰ç‚ºå…¸ç¯„焉,亦僅粗具è¦æ¨¡è€Œå·±ï¼Œå°šæœªè‡»å®Œç’§ä¹Ÿã€‚隨åŽåˆå¾—毓åšå›ä»¥èˆŠæ—èœä¹™æœ¬åŠ©å¾ç‚ºç·¨ä¿®ä¹‹éœ€ï¼Œè§€å…¶å…§å®¹ï¼Œæ›´ç‚ºé å¤ï¼Œè‡ªèˆœä»¥å‰æº¯æºäºŽé»ƒå¸æœ‰ç†Šæ°ï¼Œç‚ºäººæ–‡ä¹‹åˆç¥–,固然有åƒè€ƒä¹‹åƒ¹å€¼ã€‚〠In April of 1993 my nephew BÇŽo ZhÄ“n 葆真 on his way to America, stopped briefly in Hong Kong where I lived. We discussed how to reconstruct our genealogy. Someone said: “There was a gentleman by the name of YÄ«ng Yà 應儀 who took pride in preserving some very old genealogy books. He made a copy of it, which may be used as a model, although there were many details missing. Later on he obtain another old copy from Yù Fú æ¯“åš which shed some light on the other copy. This copy went further back from Shun Di to Huang Di, who was our first ancestor. This is most valuable to me.â€
æ„擬予以剪è£ï¼Œç¸®å°ç¯„åœï¼Œç·¨ç‚ºå®¶èœï¼Œå‚³è‡³åŽäººï¼Œä½¿å…¶æ¯‹å¿˜ç¥–宗之æºæµï¼Œèˆ‡æ—親之開æžï¼Œæ„義殊大,實éžå°‹å¸¸ä¹‹èˆ‰ã€‚ The goal of doing all this is to preserve our past generations for our future generations.
葆真å›æ·±çŸ¥äº‹ç¹ä»»é‡ï¼ŒæƒŸæ„å¿—å …å¼·ï¼ŒåŠªåŠ›å®Œæˆç·¨ä¿®ä»»å‹™ï¼ŒåŠŸç¸¾æ˜ç„¶ï¼Œç•™ååŽä¸–,至為欽佩。檢查家èœå…§å®¹ï¼Œæ±ºå®šè‡ªé»ƒå¸æœ‰ç†Šæ°é–‹å§‹ï¼Œé †åºæ•´ç†ç·¨ä¿®ï¼Œé å‹ä»¥åŽï¼Œè©³åˆ—ç„¡éºã€‚秀祥太祖生é”å‹ï¼Œé”榮,é”è¯ï¼Œåˆ†å±…于平安,銅鑼柱åŠå¤§å¢ªä¸‰æ‘,查é”å—本是和å—,但何故改和為é”,未èžé•·è€…æåŠï¼Œä¸å¾—而知。我é”å‹ç¥–當年兄弟三人,é¸æ“‡å¹³å¦ç”°æ´‹ç«‹æ‘,緬想å‰è¼©å‹¤å‹žï¼Œé‘¿äº•è€•ç”°ï¼Œå®‰å±…樂æ¥',且兄弟三æ‘æˆå“å—形,守望相助,雞犬之è²ç›¸èžï¼Œäº’為唇齒,急則å¯ç›¸ä¾ï¼Œæ„在斯乎。 My nephew spent many hours helping me to put together this genealogy work so that generations from Dacheng on will have a complete detailed reference zupu. Xiu Xiang fathered Dacheng, Darong, and Dahua living in Ping’an, Tongluozhu, and Dadun villages respectively. Original the character Da é” was the character He å’Œ. Nobody know why it was changed. The three brothers found this land very cultivatable. It was flat and well watered. They built houses on the land in the shape of a triangle so that they can see each other and they can hear the sound of each other’s chickens and dogs. In other words, they will be able to help each other in case they have problems.
復承å‰æ¸…探花陳伯陶先生繼宋賢陳白沙先生å†æ’°æ³•ç¥–派目; 大德å兼壽,家邦耀é 光, 廣å—星起å™ï¼Œè‚²ä¿Šå…†å…¶æ˜Œã€‚ A third-place candidate in the imperial examination Chen Botao continued Chen Baisha’s generation poem for another twenty generations. Da de ming jian shou, jia bang yao yuan guang, Guang nan xing qi xu, yu jun zhao qi chang.
åˆå¯æŽ¥çºŒäºŒå代矣,ç¶æˆ‘é”å‹ç¥–之åå«ï¼Œèž½æ–¯è¡æ…¶ã€ç¶¿å»¶è¬ä¸–,祈求晚輩有æ°å‡ºä¹‹äººæ,將æ¤å®¶èœéŠœæŽ¥è€Œä¸‹ï¼Œé‡è¨‚新編,åŽä¾†é€²ä¸Šï¼Œæ›´ç™¼æšå…‰å¤§ä¹Ÿã€‚ We hope that Dacheng’s descendants will flourish for a long time, when another poet will composed a generation poem for another twenty generations and continue their zupu.
å…月下旬,葆真å›å¯„來家èœåˆç¨¿ä¹™ä»½ï¼Œç¶“å¾æ ¡å°ç„¡è¨›ï¼Œé©é€¢æ‡‰æ£ å›æ¸æ¸¯æ¸¡å‡ï¼Œä¹ƒå°‡æ¤ç¨¿äº¤å…¶è¨‚æ£ï¼ŒéŽç›®ä¹‹ä½™ï¼Œä¸å‹æ¡æ¬£ï¼Œä¸”概然贊助å°åˆ·è²»ç”¨ï¼Œé¼ŽåŠ›çŽ‰æˆå–„舉,故特題å以資紀念。 My thanks to my nephew Baozhen, who at the end of June, sent back two copies of the zupu to me. I proofread it and found no errors. Thank you to Yingtang who came to Hong Kong and saw the zupu. He was very pleased with the manuscripts and donated money to have it printed.
å¾å¤–å«åª³é»ƒæ€è™¹å¥³å£«ï¼Œè² 責與å°å±±å°åˆ·å» 接洽承å°äº‹å®œï¼Œå¹¶ä»£ç‚ºå¯„發,費神之處,感激無涯矣,是為åºã€‚ Thank you to my granddaughter-in-law Huang Sihong who took care of the publishing of the zupu in Taishan and sent it back to me.
陳海峰敬撰 å…¬æ·ä¸€ä¹ä¹ä¸‰å¹´å…月二åå…æ—¥ Written by Chen Haifeng 26th of June 1993" Chén Bái ShÄ é™³ç™½æ²™ was not from this branch of Chen. He was from the same branch as Alex (June Chan)’s husband. I have the generation poem of this branch and I intend to post it at a later date. I also intend to post the lineage from the progenitor Chen Pan Xiang (陳判鄉) (Generation 1) down to Generation 16. I do not believe that this branch comes from Chen Hui (陳è¼) and his seven sons. My preliminary assessment is based upon a couple of indications from other sources including the following commentary at: www.chens.org.cn/shownews.asp?newsid=1435 What I understand from a passage there is as follow: "During the Song Dynasty the ancestors of Chen Pà n XiÄng (判鄉/乡]) moved from Hénán Province, Tà iqiÅ« (æ²³å—çœå¤ªä¸˜) (now called YÇ’ngchéng 永城) to GuÇŽngdÅng Province at Nánxióng (广东å—雄). In 1273AD, 97 families moved from Nánxióng (å—雄) to the southern part of Guangdong at YÄnzhà ng (烟瘴); Pan Xiang (判乡) and his younger brother Pan JÄ« (判唧) among them. Pà n XiÄng (判乡) and Pà n JÄ« (判唧) moved in Xinhui (新会); Pà n XiÄng (判乡) settled in Wà ihÇŽi XiÄng 外海乡 while Pan JÄ« (判唧) in ShÃtou XiÄng 石头乡". From another source that my Sifu, Henry Tom, so kindly provided me the following lineage quoted there does not go to Chen Hui )陳è¼) and his seven sons. That lineage is: Wén (æ–‡) --> DÇng (鼎) --> FèngshÄn (鳳山) --> KÅ«n (å¤) --> Zhà (ç›´) --> Zuò (祚). Fèng ShÄn (鳳山)’s great grandson, Zuò (祚), is quoted to have settled in Bái ShÄ (白沙). Zuò (祚) is one generation lower than Chen Hui’s seven sons. The preface quoted above said that “because of political unrest, the seven brothers together with their families (altogether 28 people) fled from home. When the great catastrophe arrived, everyone fled in different directions. Mó 謨 went to XÄ«nhuì 新會. XuÄn 宣 went to DÅngwÇŽn æ±èŽž. YÄ«ng 英 went to ChÅngjÄ«n 冲金. KÇŽi æ„· went to WèncÅ«n 汶æ‘. Rùn é– went to CháozhÅu 潮州. Tú 圖 went to GÇ”gÄng å¤å²¡. Rén ä» went to QÄ«ngyuÇŽn 清é . . Chén Huī’s youngest son, Chén Rén (ä»), lived from 1183 to 1259 AD. However the progenitor of June Chan (Alex)’s husband is Pà n XiÄng (判鄉) Generation 1 who moved from Nánxióng (å—雄) in 1273 AD with 97 families. That was the reason why I said Alex’s husband (the same as Chén Bái ShÄ (陳白沙)) ancestral line could not come from one of Chen Hui’s seven sons. Could Pà n XiÄng (判鄉) therefore be the son of Zuò (祚), or other intermediate generation(s) or is it through another descendant of Chén Wén (陳文)? Note that Zuò (祚) was the youngest son and so was his father, grandfather and great grandfather. In term of time, Zuò (祚) could tie up with Pà n XiÄng (判鄉) but we need a source to confirm. It is tempting to draw conclusions that Chen Hui is the forefather of Chen clan in Guangdong Province and that Chen Zheng is the forefather of Chen clan for Fujian Province. However when one should refer to the vast number of Chen zupus that are now available, it would be wise to refrain from drawing such conclusions.
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Post by philiptancl on Jul 7, 2009 3:58:55 GMT -5
When I first read Alex posting in this Forum, I was thinking it could take quite some effort to locate her husband lineage from her ancestral village. She first managed to get hold a hand written copy of the generation names (generation poem) of her husband lineage which I had reproduced in digital form. I shall be sending it to Xuangxing for posting it in this Forum.
Alex has found her ancestral zupu where her father-in-law name is quoted therein. I had been given advanced copy of those pages containing her husband pedigree line from the progenitor to her father-in-law. I am in the process of compiling them into a spreadsheet for posting in this Forum. When it is ready Alex has agreed for me to post it in this Forum.
I am pretty amazed that Alex was able to obtain her lineage without too much of a struggle.
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Post by Henry on Jul 7, 2009 6:21:27 GMT -5
Philip, In response to the apparent lack of a struggle to acquire her husband's lineage indicated here and in your other posting, I have included here my clarification that I posted in your other thread: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=names&action=display&thread=752&page=7"Hi Philip, June Chen, aka "ALex", had engaged my Taishan nephew to do the research for her in Baisha village. It was through the very hard work and persistence of my nephew that June was able to get the lineage information for her husband. My nephew had to contact the village chief, who was not very helpful and then contacted another village officer who was cooperative. Also, he had to deal with the Baisha Museum, where they would not allow him to make copies of the village lineage. A Baisha zupu had to be sent back from Canada - by boat! My nephew had to research in the Xinhui and Jiangmen libraries. My nephew had other Chen lineages and other clan zupus that he used to barter to get information. My nephew exceeded the amount of time and travel expenses being paid for by June, however, after I told him that June could not pay anymore money and was ill - my nephew continued the research until he found all the necessary information after months of research. I believe that for him, this research became a kind of professional challenge and he wanted to help June. It was amazing research, however, it is not obvious or very evident with regard to the level of effort and dedication necessary to effect a successful conclusion. Henry" Henry
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Post by philiptancl on Jul 7, 2009 9:22:44 GMT -5
Hi Henry,
I did keep abreast on the huge effort put in by your nephew in Taishan. While following through the his very hard work and persistence, I was nevertheless quite apprehensive that whatever zupu or jiapu found, it might still not able to positively connect up to Alex father-in-law especially when she did not know the names of one or two the earlier generations. I was rather surprised it could so speedily resolved just after months of research by your nephew. From what I had heard from Alex, through our exchange of emails, she has been on this genealogy trail for quite some years. I understand she had consulted more authoritative people on Chen genealogy without much progress until she uses the service of your nephew. With such a successful conclusion she has had, it would be worth every cent even if your nephew had charged her the full payment and more for his services. It is still pittance compared with what you yourself had to go through in terms of time as well as monetary resources.
Philip
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Post by xuangxing on Jul 7, 2009 22:33:42 GMT -5
When I first read Alex posting in this Forum, I was thinking it could take quite some effort to locate her husband lineage from her ancestral village. She first managed to get hold a hand written copy of the generation names (generation poem) of her husband lineage which I had reproduced in digital form. I shall be sending it to Xuangxing for posting it in this Forum. Philip’s fifth chart for posting is as follows:
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Post by philiptancl on Jul 10, 2009 4:47:50 GMT -5
Alex (June Chan) came to this Forum on Feb 3, 2009 trying to locate her father-in-law ancestral village and his ancestral line. See her thread Area/Village just outside Jiangmen at: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=maps&action=display&thread=885I was then quite skeptical that she could eventually succeed especially, when I subsequently knew, that what she had was her father-in-law’s name scribbled on a piece of paper. Even after she engaged the services of Henry’s nephew Tan Shi Cheng and subsequently produced another hand written sheet of paper purported to be the generation poem of her father-in-law family line, my confidence of her eventual success was not much improved. The generation poem was reproduced in digital form at following thread ( Reply #39 on Jul 7, 2009) together with some annotations for which I stole the liberty of adding: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=clanprogenitor&action=display&thread=845&page=3or at this thread ( Reply #95 on Jul 7, 2009): siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=names&action=display&thread=752&page=7On June 30, 2009 Henry forwarded the relevant pages of the zupu supposedly to be from the progenitor to June’s father-in-law. I had quite a hard time translating it into my normal spreadsheet of lineage recording because of the following reasons: 1. The Chinese characters in the zupu were all handwriting and not in printed form, 2. Though I am quite adept in converting printed Chinese characters into digital form using COCR2 or the more laborious nciku.com, I could not use COCR2 as it is not able to recognize Chinese characters in hand written form, 3. To use nciku.com, I need to know the rough strokes of each Chinese character. When you do not read and understand Chinese and the characters are hand written, very often you would be at a lost on how the strokes of the Chinese characters should be. You need to keep running to your Chinese literate friends to seek help on how the strokes are written. As quite a few of the characters are hardly used nowadays, they too may not be able to interpret the strokes for you. You then need to seek out your friends who are more literate in Chinese. 4. You need also to understand that particular genealogical format the zupu had been recorded. For the first time I had a slight difference in interpretation with my Sifu, Henry. If any reader of this Forum is interested see a chart how this format of Chinese genealogy is interpreted, please post a line on it in this Forum and I shall arrange for it to be posted. It was with great satisfaction that I have finally completed the pedigree lineage from the progenitor to June’s father-in-law in the form easily understandable by general readers of this Forum. I had also done some research on the side and I added them alongside. I shall be sending the results over the weekend to my collaborator Zuangxing for posting in this Forum. The credit of the final results must surely go to Henry’s nephew, Tan Shi Cheng, for his very hard work, persistence and research in the Xinhui and Jiangmen libraries. What is more important must have been his skill of extracting information when seemingly there is a stone wall.
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Post by philiptancl on Jul 13, 2009 2:19:26 GMT -5
For those who are following this thread, please be inform that my collaborator Xuangxing has just posted the pedigree lineage from the progenitor to (Alex) June Chan's father-in-law at " Chinese Genealogy Section" under the thread " Common Ancestor with Surname Chen (陳/陈)" at Reply #97 Jul 13 siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=names&action=display&thread=752&page=7Xuangxing would not be posting it here on this thread to avoid duplication of postings.
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Post by philiptancl on Jul 20, 2009 5:59:51 GMT -5
To read the Chinese characters, please click "View", "Encoding" and "Unicode (UTF-8)" I refer to Reply #30 on Feb 25, 2009 that Xuangxing posted for me on this thread. The lineage contained therein was taken mainly from 陳æ°æ—誌 Chén Shì Zú Zhì. This zupu is available from the Chen Temple at å—雄ç 玑巷 Nán Xióng ZhÅ« JÄ« Xià ng. I obtained a copy towards the end of last year. Since then I understand that a reprint has done with some of the mistakes contained in the original version corrected. On the chart on Page 118 of the original zupu version, Tán XiÄn 談先, Bà XiÄn 霸先 and XiÅ« XiÄn 休先 were shown as the descendants of both Wén FÇ” 文輔 and Wén Zà n 文贊. Therefore it was obvious that there was a mistake on the chart. I had then taken Tán XiÄn 談先 to be the descendant of Wén FÇ” 文輔 while Bà XiÄn 霸先 and XiÅ« XiÄn 休先 the descendants of Wén Zà n 文贊. From the reprinted zupu version, the same chart is provided on Page 120 but with Tán XiÄn 談先, Bà XiÄn 霸先 and XiÅ« XiÄn 休先 all shown as descendants of Wén FÇ” 文輔. Closer examination of subsequent pages of the reprinted zupu version by Gene Chin showed that Wén FÇ” 文輔 did not have any descendant and that Tán XiÄn 談先, Bà XiÄn 霸先 and XiÅ« XiÄn 休先 were all descendants of Wén Zà n 文贊. At the request of Gene, I examined some of the other zupus that I have and they essentially substantiated the finding of Gene. Page 119 in the original zupu version the great, great grandson of Bó ZÅng 伯宗 appeared to be written as ShÄn Yán 山嚴. Gene suspected the two characters of ShÄn Yán 山嚴 should be combined to be just one Chinese character of Yán å·–. Both åš´ and å·– are pronounced the same in pinyin but they are not in Cantonese or Hoisanva. Further ShÄn Yán 山嚴 doesn't make any sense as a name. Gene suspicion is confirmed on Page 324 of the reprinted zupu version. For those interested to look at some pages of the reprinted zupu version of 陳æ°æ—誌 Chén Shì Zú Zhì please go to the link: www.chens.org.cn/fengtai/show.aspx?id=242&cid=12For those who wish to obtain a copy of the 陳æ°æ—誌 Chén Shì Zú Zhì, I would suggest that you contact Henry Tom at Tomclan@Gmail.com. His nephew, Tan Shi Cheng, should be able to get a copy for you by contacting another person who in turn can then travel to the remote Chen Temple to pick up a copy. When I purchased the original copy, the price of the book itself was 500 Yuan and not a penny less. This excluded the internal posting within China, the posting by airmail to me and the traditional "red packets" for Shi Cheng and the third person. When I got my original copy it cost me 1,100 Yuan excluding the cost for Western Union money transfer. I understand that for the reprint zupu version, the Chen Temple no longer set a price for the book. What is now required is a donation to the temple and your name will be written on a tablet for displaying you as a donor to the temple. If that being the case, I suppose your donation should at least match the previous price of 500 Yuan. Going back Reply #30 on Feb 25, 2009 that Xuangxing posted for me in this thread, I shall forward the revised version to Xuangxing for posting after receiving further comments and/or corrections from Gene Chin.
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Post by xuangxing on Jul 21, 2009 23:53:45 GMT -5
. . . Going back Reply #30 on Feb 25, 2009 that Xuangxing posted for me in this thread, I shall forward the revised version to Xuangxing for posting after receiving further comments and/or corrections from Gene Chin. Philip’s fourth chart (2nd revision) for posting is as follows:
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Post by philiptancl on Jul 22, 2009 3:21:50 GMT -5
Thank you, Xuangxing, for posting the revised Fourth Chart which is of relevant mainly for Chen/Chan/Chin descendants in Guangdong. Special thanks must go to Gene Chin who made invaluable contributions, suggestions and comments for the revision. He interest in Chinese genealogy is a continuation of his father. His is also very knowledgeable in both Mandarin and Szeyapwa. Gene Chin main interest for the last 25 years is in genealogy, especially Chin/Chen/Chan/Tan 陳 genealogy and in promoting and encouraging overseas Chinese, especially in the United States and Canada, to remember their roots and heritage through genealogy. Towards this end, he has set up the web site at: www3.fitnyc.edu/gene_chin/tree. It was put up in 2005 and is undergoing a major update at this point. Based upon Gene observation, there also appears a trend among many Chinese in the United States and Canada originally from Guangdong Sze Yap (Chinese: 四邑; pinyin: Sìyì; Cantonese: Sei Yap) region losing the ability to speak Szeyapwa. In trying to preserve this heritage he also has a web site at: www3.fitnyc.edu/gene_chin/hoisanva. It is my great privilege and good fortune that I have met him through the Internet and within the short space of time, we have exchange substantial information and discussion on Chen genealogy.
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