jing
Member
Posts: 59
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Post by jing on May 2, 2010 18:44:47 GMT -5
Hi All,
Has anyone else come across how adoptions are recorded in pre1920 China?
I ran a clue in the name of a relative who was adopted. His name distinguished his adoption from the blood brother in the positions of their generation and given names. For instance: The blood son's name was "Sin Huong" vs the adopted son's name as "Lok Sin."
Jing
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Post by helen on May 3, 2010 1:08:46 GMT -5
Not sure how they were recorded - but usually if there were no sons in the family, the oldest son of a brother is "adopted" by the family with no son - in order for the family name to be passed on. eg My M in Law and her sister had no brothers. Their father's younger brother "gave" his son to his older brother, to carry the name.
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Post by Woodson on May 3, 2010 14:23:21 GMT -5
Jing,
I think you may be reading more to it than the original intention. For example my cousins and I all have the character 群 in our given name. Most of us have it as the first of the two characters except for a set of brothers where the eldest followed the convention and his two younger siblings have it as the second characters. Yes, they are blood brothers.
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jing
Member
Posts: 59
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Post by jing on May 4, 2010 16:53:54 GMT -5
Hi Woodson & Helen,
Thanks for your input. I've also put my inquiry (How are adoptions recorded in genealogies for pre1915?) out to two other contacts who have Chinese genealogy expertise and usually busy. Hopeful, they'll be able to shine a light in the right direction.
Jing
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Post by Henry on May 4, 2010 17:44:40 GMT -5
Jing,
I would think that adoptions were not rare prior to 1915 or even afterwards, but, I would not even venture a guess as to how many or what percentage.
Adoptions are noted in the annotations for that person - this was true in the case of my maternal grandfather who was adopted by an uncle who did not have any sons. Many Chinese do not like to discuss adoptions openly.
Henry
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jing
Member
Posts: 59
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Post by jing on May 4, 2010 22:41:00 GMT -5
Hi Henry. Thanks for your information. I've heard of death bed confessions wherein someone finally tells his family that he was adopted. I have several friends whose fathers were adopted, and that they were too young to remember their real surnames and families.
Several years back, the late Him Mark Lai (Chinese American Historian) mentioned that there were widespread adoption of young boys by different surname families during the 1915-1920's period. He thought it might have been resulted from men who left the villages for work abroad and not being able to return for years.
Jing
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Post by philiptancl on May 6, 2010 4:21:14 GMT -5
Hi Jing,
Within the forest of family trees to which I belong, I have in my possession the zupus/jiapus for 10 pedigree lines of various surnames. These trees are connected to each other only from my grandfather generation downwards either by blood or through marriage. What strikes me when going through these zupus/jiapus is the huge number of adoptions recorded therein. The following is mainly what I gathered from my mother-in-law. (She is 90 years old now but she is still as sharp as ever. Though illiterate she could, on her own, get assess any stock quote she desired from all the stock quotes provided in one TV channel in Malaysia. I often tell my wife that her mother is so shrewd that if she is a businesswoman, she would be the last person I would ever do business with).
Zupus/jiapus are important documents; at least in times of old. Any adoptions of males were recorded therein. There are rules to follow regarding adoption. Adoptions are usually done amongst the same surname family and normally by one without male descendant from another that has more than one descendant. Adoption would have to be within the same generation level. These adoptions would be recorded in the zupu/jiapu on both side of the family tree (one side would record as given out for adoption while the other side would record as adopted in). Should adoption be done outside of the same surname, the adoption would still be recorded in the jiapu/zupu of the adopting person and the adoption is stated differently therein. However the name would not appear in the zupu/jiapa of the family who gave out the male offspring for adoption.
I understand from Stephen Lim that the jiapus/zupus were important documents after 1949 when rationing was implemented over a period of time. The jiapus/zupus were one documents for determining the distribution of the rationing tickets.
Philip
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jing
Member
Posts: 59
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Post by jing on May 6, 2010 13:08:29 GMT -5
Hi Philip, Thank you for your input too. This Forum has been most informative ! From my outside contact from Siyi contributors, I was given similar information from you. Do you happen to have an example of what word or phrase is used to define the adoption on the zupu/jiapus?
So, I'm still looking for an explanation why two brothers would have names with inverted generation order as in the following family:
The 1st son was named: 黄 信 熊 was listed at his family home on the "sun gee pi" - ancestral tablet by his descendants. The younger son was adopted.. I think after the first son passed away, and he was named: 黄 樂 信. I know that the younger son was adopted (bought) from another family with a different surname. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of the zupu yet...
Jing
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Post by philiptancl on May 7, 2010 1:35:56 GMT -5
Hi Jing,
To view the Chinese characters, click on "View", "Encoding", "More" and "Chinese Simplified (GB2312)".
When I first read your latest posting, I thought the answer to your query would be a simple one. For adoption within the same surname clan, I would had assumed the simple answer to be "³öÀ^" marked along the name given out for adoption and "ÈëÀ^" alongside his name in the family tree adopting him; all within the same generation level. For adoption outside of the same surname clan, it would be "ï…" or "Ñø".
Further investigation across a few zupus (among the 10 zupus that I mentioned in my previous posting) threw out further questions than what I had thought would be simple answers as had given above.
In the zupu entitled "ÌÒԴ̫ƽÀîÊÏ×å×V. ÂíÀ´Î÷„ÕØÓÀ¹«ÀîÊϼÒ×å»á·Ó¡. 1999", "³öÀ^" is quoted as "³ö" while "ÈëÀ^" as "ËÃ". For adoption outside of the same surname clan, it is ¡°Ñø¡±, the simplified character for ¡°ï…¡±.
In the zupu entitled "ÓÀ´ºÐ¡á²ÄÏɽ³ÂÊÏ. ÓŵÀ¹«³¤·¿. 2003", ¡°³öËÃ" instead of "³öÀ^" and "ËÃËï" instead of "ÈëÀ^". In some other parts of the zupu, "Ë«³Ð" was used for both sides.
In that entitled "ÌÒÔ´ß_ÖÐÍõÃñ×Ú×V. 1938", "³ö¼Ì" and "ËÃ" were used instead. In addition, ¡°Á½³Ð with name of adoption father¡± was quoted for the one party and "Á½³Ð×Ó" for the other party. In some that were marked with "ï…", "Á½³Ð×Ó" was also marked alongside. This may indicate some form of adoption arrangement with the other family outside of the surname clan. As I can neither read nor write in Chinese and not knowing the rules regarding entry into zupu/jiapu, I hope others in this forum could enlighten the intricacies and significance of the terms used.
So your surname is Huang (»Æ). You said you do not have a copy of your zupu yet. Are your ancestors from ̨ɽ? If so, your »Æ branch may be in "̨ɽ»ÆÊÏ×å×V. 2006".
Just yesterday I was handed a Huang zupu entitled "½ÏÄ»ÆÃñÇÍɽ¹«×ÚÊ·. 2007".
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jing
Member
Posts: 59
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Post by jing on May 7, 2010 15:52:36 GMT -5
Hi Philip,
Thanks for your detailed response. How do I convert your citations and examples into chinese characters. My screen show combinations of letter.
I'll be in HK in a few weeks, would I be able to find the Huang zupu in a bookstore there?
thanks, jing
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jing
Member
Posts: 59
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Post by jing on May 7, 2010 20:58:08 GMT -5
Hi Philip,
Just found the siyi forum thread on the Huang chart. I'm checking that out.
I still need someone's tips on converting Philip's citation & examples into chinese characters though.
thanks all, jing
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Post by philiptancl on May 8, 2010 1:33:22 GMT -5
Hi Jing, To view the Chinese characters, click on "View", "Encoding", "More" and "Chinese Simplified (GB2312)". I doubt very much you would be able to obtain the said Huang zupu, or any zupu for that matter, in any bookshop. If you do, please let me know. I have a copy of the book in question that I obtained through Henry Tom's nephew in Taishan. Ben Lee too has a copy. If you can send me a personal message through this Forum providing me with your email, I could scan the table of contents for you. You can then check whether the ancestral village that your ancestors originated from is contained therein. If so, then I can see what I can do for you. The whole book has 1,213 pages while the table of contents occupied 13 pages. Alternatively, should you want a hard copy for yourself, you could contact Henry's nephew to get you a copy if the book is still available. Getting it this way would require additional expenses like "red packet" and the cost of getting it to you. The two books I mentioned previously as shown below: Have a good trip to Hong Kong. If you have the time, you could detour slightly and drop into Kuala Lumpur as well and be my guest. Brian (from Hawaii) and Henry were here before. Philip
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Post by Henry on May 8, 2010 5:24:27 GMT -5
Hi Jing,
Philip is a great host and I am very fortunate that we are friends !
If you are going to be in Hong Kong - will you be visiting the Taishan area? if so, and you want a copy of this Huang genealogy book, please let me know on "Tomclan@Gmail.com" and I will ask my nephew to buy this book and bring it to your Taishan hotel.
This book is excellent because it traces the lineages from HuangDi, the Yellow Emperor ( 2697 BC 2597 BC ) down to the generations in the Taishan area.
It is probably better to hand carry it home, because the shipping can run about $40 plus USD.
Henry
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jing
Member
Posts: 59
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Post by jing on May 8, 2010 9:27:08 GMT -5
Hi Philip and Henry, You guys rock! I followed Philip's instructions and got the chinese characters ! Yahoo. Thanks for the all the tips. I'm really pretty illiterate in Chinese... , so I don't think I'll need to get a copy of the Wong book... It's more a curiousity about a certain line. I've been using Nicku site for quick search, writing and cut and paste to a word document.
Jing from SF
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jing
Member
Posts: 59
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Post by jing on May 16, 2010 15:07:00 GMT -5
Hi Philip, I sent you an email through your gmail account. Jing
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