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Post by sierratrout on Sept 29, 2010 21:32:34 GMT -5
Since I began researching my Chinese roots these past two years, I have always assumed my grandfather (Chin Yuey) was born in China, mostly based on what I was told as a child then later reaffirmed by a few relatives I have since interviewed. If this “hearsay” is ignored, then I have to admit that I really don’t know whether he was born in China or the U.S. as I don’t have any definitive “proof” of either, if any such proof really exists.
I don’t know how to adequately weigh the documentation/ information I have. I would really appreciate your expertise in helping me track down the proof needed.
Known facts about my grandfather: Chinese name: Chan Shuping American name: Chin Sing Yuey; later Yuey Chinn Born: 5 Oct 1875 Died: 27 Nov 1931, Oakland, California
Documents/facts supporting his birth in California: -- One of his daughter’s birth certificates lists his birth place as California (1921). -- The U.S. Federal Censuses for my grandfather for the years 1910, 1920, and 1930 all list his place of origin as “California”. -- His death certificate (1931) which, in addition to listing his birthplace as “California,” also states that he lived in California his whole life. The informant for the death certificate was his Chinese-American wife (his second wife). -- My grandfather owned property in Oakland at least as early as 1912, and my understanding is that only American citizens could “own” property at that time.
One confusing part has been the San Francisco earthquake/fire in 1906. I know that many Chinese immigrants registered their place of birth as the U.S. afterwards, so if my grandfather was one of these, he may have falsified his place of birth from then on, fearing deportation otherwise.
Documents/facts supporting his birth in China: -- My childhood memories and recent interviews with a couple of aunts. -- My grandfather had a first wife in China and a son. I know it’s still possible that he was born in California and then traveled to China to marry and start a family. This wife and son eventually immigrated to the U.S. in 1911 (I have the immigration files from NARA, San Bruno). Also, the son’s death certificate (1976) lists his father’s place of birth as “China” (the informant was the son’s Chinese-American wife). -- I have a picture of my grandfather when he was a young man. I found out from a professional photographer that the photo was taken in the United States. In the photo my grandfather is wearing a queue. At first I thought this was proof that he was born in China, but am now confused as my research reveals that many Chinese-American males wore a queue to demonstrate their allegiance to China.
That’s really all I have. Thus far I have not been able to find my grandfather’s immigration file(s) from NARA, although I am still working on this.
Can any of you lend your knowledge and/or experience to this quandary?
Thank you so much,
Deborah Trout
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Post by laohuaqiao on Sept 30, 2010 7:39:36 GMT -5
From what you have written, in my opinion, I'm 99.99% sure your grandfather was born in China. As you said, many Chinese declared being born in SF after the earthquake fire, my great grandfather was one of them. I hope the records are still available that someday someone will do a count on how many Chinese came forward after the quake and registered as American-born in SF.
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Post by sierratrout on Sept 30, 2010 10:30:28 GMT -5
Thank you for this input -- I really, really appreciate it. I want to write my grandfather's "story" and need to know for certain where he was born. Regarding the number of Chinese immigrants who claimed birth in S.F. after the earthquake, I read about a statistician who figured out that the number of Chinese who claimed to be natives right after the earthquake meant that each woman of child-bearing years (and there weren't many Chinese women back then) would have had to give birth to 80 male children!
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Post by Doug 周 on Sept 30, 2010 12:07:22 GMT -5
Nice statistic about the 80 male per Chinese woman. That is very fertile indeed! About genealogy, you can NEVER be certain. You make the best guess based on the assessment of as many 'facts' available. You have done a thorough research. That is why sourcing your facts is very important. You can only be certain of your sources. Later, another relative can look at your sources, and in light of any new data discovered, make another educated guess or reconfirm your initial impression. BTW: I have to agree with laohuaqiao. Your grandfather was probably born in China or had a 10 times Octo-mom. Doug
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Post by sierratrout on Sept 30, 2010 18:39:56 GMT -5
Thanks, Doug. I always appreciate your thoughtful (and clever) replies, and your comments do help. I will continue with my grandfather's story, now glad that I was painstakingly detailed in recording my sources. -- Deborah
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jing
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Posts: 59
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Post by jing on Sept 30, 2010 21:49:57 GMT -5
Hi Sierratrout,
I would do a US census search for your gf for 1880 under his name since he was born in 1875. He would be listed as a child with his parents and born in California. Also, what does his gravestone say?... and yes, only US native borns could own property before the Chinese Exclusion acts were repealed in 1943. I'm leaning towards born in California...
In my family research, I found my mother-in-law's father who was born in SF. On his SF Certificate of Birth dated 1900, there is a photo of him as a 6 year old with a queue. He was delivered by a "Jop Doy So" = in chinese, that is the word for a midwife. Also, in 1909, he went to southern China and was married. On his return to the states, he brought his new bride to SF that same year.
Jing
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Post by sierratrout on Oct 2, 2010 9:14:24 GMT -5
Hi Jing, I went back and rechecked the US census for 1880 and 1890 and didn't get any convincing hits for my GF or his parents. His gravestone contains Chinese characters that only provide his name, not any village.
I'm wondering why my mother and two aunties felt so strongly he was born in China. My GF died at age 58 in 1931, so his eight U.S.-born kids were still young (ranging in age from 8 to 22); and none of his grandkids ever got to meet him.
Also, if he were a U.S. native and went to China to marry, was it common to stay in China for a few years? My GF had a wife in China and one son. He may also have had two other kids as well, as two others are documented in the son's and first wife's immigration papers when they came through Angel Island in 1911. My relatives knew the wife and son and his family, but were never aware of these other two. Anyway, I guess I'm wondering if it makes sense that my GF would stay in China long enough to create a family, then migrate back to the U.S. without them. Another interesting thing is that he married a Chinese-American woman in about 1907, in S.F., and then had eight kids with her.
Jing, are you still thinking he was born in California? Would love your thoughts.
Also, how did you manage to get your mother-in-law's father's SF birth certificate? Was there any official record kept of those who came forward after the 1906 quake and claimed their birth in S.F., and if so, do we have access to these records?
Thanks, Jing. I appreciate your help and knowledge.
-- Deborah
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Post by chak on Oct 2, 2010 12:10:45 GMT -5
Hi Deborah,
My g-grandfather immigrated here in 1879. He later returned to his village, got married and had 2 children by the wife in China. I don’t know if he planned on bringing her back here or whether the U.S. laws prohibited it, but she never came over. He later married a S.F. native and had another 12 children. The more I read, this was not an uncommon family situation.
If S. F. birth records for Chinese are available for 1880, I would be interested in finding out how to obtain them too! My g-grandmother, Mamie Yee Chin, was born in S.F. in 1880, could speak good English and was blind. I thought she would be the easy one to trace but I haven’t been able to find anything on her!
Also, I don’t know if it’s common for a U.S. native to marry in China and stay for a few years, but that’s exactly what my GF did. He went over in 1922, got married and stayed there for a year or two - was even treasurer of the village! He was comfortable and happy living there and talked about going back some day but never did.
Carol
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jing
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Posts: 59
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Post by jing on Oct 2, 2010 18:48:01 GMT -5
Hi Deborah, Well, I guess I'm really on the fence on whether your gf was born in China or California... official government documents list California as his birthplace. Is it possible that his children thought he was born in China because he only spoke Chinese or that he or his wife told them that information ... Until 1884 the Tape v Hurley lawsuit, Chinese children faced discrimination from being accepted by the public school. (Tape v Hurley, a California Supreme Court case 1884) See: McClain, Charles "In Search of Equality:The Chinese Struggle Against Discrimination in 19th century America) Previous to that many Chinese children were privately tutored or private schools in SF. Some were sent back to China to be educated. Anyway, my mother-inlaw's father was really born in SF in 1888, I think he mostly spoke Chinese and could speak English. He worked in Chinatown and all his friends were Chinese speakers. RE: my mother-inlaw's father's Certificate of Birth, I hit the jackpot at NARA.SF in 1992 when I requested his U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service RG85 case file! NARA.SF has a database with the names of immigrants who entered/re-entered SF and Honolulu from about 1898 to about 1950's and you need to have the name that the individual used. (usually not their adopted American name). It is rare to find many personal documents on an individual in those case files, but there were pictures of him at various ages, true family history, the names of other family members, as well as the wedding contract with his new bride (a red chinese calligraphy document). Before leaving the US to wed in China, her father had to establish that he was a native born by turning over his personal documents (Chinese exclusion act (1882-1943). If not for the paper trail that were kept by the federal government, my mother-inlaw's parents documents would have gone up in ashes in the 1906 SF Earthquake and Fire. RE: Simplistically, I know of relatives who entered the US as a teenagers and returned to China in their early 20's. Many were matchmated, married and stayed a few years in the village with their families until the Japanese invasion in 1937. Those with Return documents for the US left. Some families were separated because there weren't any documents for wives and children. Then, WWII (1941-1945)... same scenerio. From 1949-1973, China became a Communist country and everyone who didn't leave China, couldn't. Those who own land, houses, businesses were educated really suffered... Jing
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jing
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Post by jing on Oct 3, 2010 21:46:39 GMT -5
Hi Deborah, All genealogists would look at the informants on the official documents at the time of recording to weigh the facts. In your case, the daughter's birth certificate, his second wife on his death certificate, and the US Census for 1910/1920/1930 that your grandfather was born in California.
Documents/facts supporting his birth in California: -- One of his daughter’s birth certificates lists his birth place as California (1921). -- The U.S. Federal Censuses for my grandfather for the years 1910, 1920, and 1930 all list his place of origin as “California”. -- His death certificate (1931) which, in addition to listing his birthplace as “California,” also states that he lived in California his whole life. The informant for the death certificate was his Chinese-American wife (his second wife). -- My grandfather owned property in Oakland at least as early as 1912, and my understanding is that only American citizens could “own” property at that time.
Jing
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Post by laohuaqiao on Oct 3, 2010 23:20:20 GMT -5
Jing, The only document that mattered was the certificate, from either immigration service or federal court or whatever government agency, declaring sierratrout's grandfather was US citizen born in San Francisco prior to 1906 and acknowledging his birth records were destroyed in the fire. That certificate should be sufficient for any subsequent declarations requiring proof of citizenship, for daughter's birth certificate or for property ownership; I doubt one needed proof for responding to the US Census question back then. What evidence he, or any Chinese, must provide to prove he was born in SF, that's what I'm curious about. I suspect, no proof, sworn testimonies from US citizens of good character was sufficient, and they were a dime (or some suitable sum of money ) a dozen.
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Post by sierratrout on Oct 4, 2010 12:42:47 GMT -5
Thank you Carol, Jing, and Laohuaqiao for your input. Your responses and shared research experiences are interesting and helpful.
Carol, your GGF’s migration pattern is starting to sound very familiar. I’m curious as to why someone would come to the U.S., then go back to China to get married (and maybe reproduce), only to not take the family back to the states. My GF had merchant status so I think he could have brought his family back with him, yet he didn’t. Am I missing some important part of history here?
Jing, I envy your success at NARA.SF. If I could just find my GF’s immigration file, maybe some of my questions would be answered. The archivist I’ve been working with at NARA.SF is surprised (and perplexed) that we haven’t been able to find his file, especially since I was fairly confident of his Chinese name. Right now I’m awaiting the results of a U.S. Citizen & Immigration Service “index search” of immigration and naturalization records on both my GF and his China-born son. The archivist says this is a long shot, but we’re running out of ideas.
Jing, you also mentioned the importance of considering the informant on various official documents. In the case of my GF, his Chinese-American wife was the informant for his death certificate, and she was probably the informant for the three U.S. censuses as my GF didn’t speak any English. She was an obedient wife and, if her husband ever (fraudulently) claimed to be born in S.F. after the 1906 fire and asked her to stick to this “fact,” I’m sure she would have. I think they were married in 1907 (again, based on info in the 1910 US census), and relatives say they were married in S.F. But I’m starting to doubt everything I once believed about him!
Laohuaqiao, I share your curiosity about what the Chinese needed to prove they were born in S.F. after the fire. Shouldn’t there be government documentation somewhere that lists those who came forward, what proof they provided, and whether or not their proof was accepted? Maybe a delayed birth certificate?
Thanks again to you all!
-- Deborah
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jing
Member
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Post by jing on Oct 7, 2010 19:53:14 GMT -5
Hi Deborah, I'd give the 1900 census a shot and see what is listed for your gf's birthplace... I have seen census wherein the first generation arrived are listed with China as the birthplace. For California, the first born are listed as being born in California.
And yes, the credibility of the informant is important.
Anyway, good luck.
Jing
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Post by douglaslam on Oct 16, 2010 8:32:28 GMT -5
Thank you for this input -- I really, really appreciate it. I want to write my grandfather's "story" and need to know for certain where he was born. Regarding the number of Chinese immigrants who claimed birth in S.F. after the earthquake, I read about a statistician who figured out that the number of Chinese who claimed to be natives right after the earthquake meant that each woman of child-bearing years (and there weren't many Chinese women back then) would have had to give birth to 80 male children! Very interesting observation. I read one figure quoted online of 800 male births each woman. It might have been a typo error. This goes to show just how fast the Chinese people learn to profit from the chaotic situation following the earthquake. We learn fast and quick to seize any opportunity presented itself. It is a great equalizer. Can someone please tell me if there were other minority groups tried what the Chinese had done to overcome discriminatory immigration law prevailing in 1906 or earlier. There must be groups other than the Chinese that had exploited the situation.
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Post by laohuaqiao on Oct 17, 2010 10:12:41 GMT -5
The Chinese were the only ones targeted by the Exclusion Acts, restricting immigration and not having the right to become naturalized citizens. It wasn't until the 1920s that the restrictions were extended to other Asians.
While there may have been others who took advantage of the loophole the earthquake provided, I don't think it would've been as widespread since there were legal means for them to immigrate.
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