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Post by vincenti on May 14, 2011 11:26:30 GMT -5
Since I am building an extensive family tree which is impressive but not 100% complete, I am trying to gather more missing information around my last-name 余, which in Netherlands Indie as IE romanized.
My great grandfather (Ie Peng Jang) lived in Indramaju estimated around 1880-1910, one of the landing point for overseas chinese. He had two brothers who we really don't know where he is.
His son (Ie Tiong Kwan) finished dutch-chinese school in Indramaju and continued school in Buitenzorg (now Bogor). He studied Sinology (not finished) and master mandarin, english and dutch very well. What I can remember he mentioned a family zupu (which we lost it during war times).
After Peng and Tiong, comes Ek (溢信), then me (胜利). I have checked the stroke numbers, yin-yang orders of my name. It's properly done, that means someone who choose the name must understand how to name in chinese. I assume the middle name must follow the zupu rule inherited from china as well.
I am looking more information upwards and interested to know where they come from. But this might be done only if I can have proper Zupu of Yu clan.
Anybody can help me?
Many thanks.
PS: I did learn to read and write chinese, but it's really unsufficient from me to do research in chinese language.
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Post by philiptancl on May 17, 2011 8:58:05 GMT -5
Hi Vincenti, Welcome to the Forum. To correctly view Chinese characters please select <View>, <Encoding>, and <Chinese Simplified GB2312> option from the browser menu. My wife has the same surname as yours (last name as you called it) Óà or Yu in pinyin. Her ancestral place in China is from Yongchun in Fujian Province, China. Upon visiting her ancestral village there in August 2007, were able we subsequently to get a photocopy of the complete set of her surname zupu (totaling 1032 pages) which listed the name of her father in one of the branches. The titles for the set are shown on the first two images below. That zupu showed her ancestry over about 23 generations. Before Yongchun, I understand her earlier ancestors came from Xianyou County, lying in Putian of Fujian Province. Subsequently I managed to obtain a zongpu (1151 pages) from China. This is shown on the third image below. Using both the zongpu as well as the zupu, I was able to trace her ancestry further back and all the way right to the Yellow Emperor. Counting from Yellow Emperor, she would be generation 134. I do not know how far back you are trying to trace you lineage. When you said your family tree is not 100% complete, I am wondering whether it is within your jiapu/zupu for your family that you already have, or it is that you are trying to extent your linage beyond that but not contained within. If it is on the latter, the zongpu could be the document you maybe looking for. If it is regarding the former, I would not be able to assist unless, of course, your line happens to descend from °Ùʮһ (ÊËçý¹«). If that is so it might also be found within the set of above zupu above. Since Indonesia is close to Kuala Lumpur, you are welcome to view my Yu (Ie) zongpu/zupu should you happen to be in Kuala Lumpur in the future  Philip |
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Post by vincenti on May 18, 2011 1:15:24 GMT -5
Dear Philip, What a prompt and comprehensive reply! Thank you very much! I was able to database around 1600 interrelated names (6 generations vertically), some with complete birth, death up to chinese names. Some not. That's what I mean incomplete. Unfortunately from my surname Yu there is not many information left. I know my grandpa follow the middlename rule (zupu) but unfortunately we don't have the copy anymore. (Around 1940-1950 our family had to moved couple times due to wars, chinese local massacre and government regulations banning chinese to live in the counties.) Back Zupu: I only have four middle names in order which was written in dutch+hokkian romanization: Peng -> Tiong -> Ek (Òç)-> Seng (ʤ) I assume if I had the right Zupu, I can map this remaining four middlenames into the right lineage. My main objective is to know the order for the coming generations, which I think would be wonderful. Next problem is to map the sound Peng and Tiong into chinese characters. Peng might be Beng or Feng in Pinyin. Tiong is probably Zhong (good + heart). ?? I am very happy to be able to visit you in KL, if you don't mind spending your time for this. Hi Vincenti, My wife has the same surname as yours (last name as you called it) Óà or Yu in pinyin. Her ancestral place in China is from Yongchun in Fujian Province, China. Upon visiting her ancestral village there in August 2007, were able we subsequently to get a photocopy of the complete set of her surname zupu (totaling 1032 pages) which listed the name of her father in one of the branches. The titles for the set are shown on the first two images below. That zupu showed her ancestry over about 23 generations. Before Yongchun, I understand her earlier ancestors came from Xianyou County, lying in Putian of Fujian Province. Subsequently I managed to obtain a zongpu (1151 pages) from China. This is shown on the third image below. Using both the zongpu as well as the zupu, I was able to trace her ancestry further back and all the way right to the Yellow Emperor. Counting from Yellow Emperor, she would be generation 134. I do not know how far back you are trying to trace you lineage. When you said your family tree is not 100% complete, I am wondering whether it is within your jiapu/zupu for your family that you already have, or it is that you are trying to extent your linage beyond that but not contained within. If it is on the latter, the zongpu could be the document you maybe looking for. If it is regarding the former, I would not be able to assist unless, of course, your line happens to descend from °Ùʮһ (ÊËçý¹«). If that is so it might also be found within the set of above zupu above. Since Indonesia is close to Kuala Lumpur, you are welcome to view my Yu (Ie) zongpu/zupu should you happen to be in Kuala Lumpur in the future Philip |
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Post by philiptancl on May 18, 2011 4:03:27 GMT -5
Hi Vincenti, What you have now is already more than what I had before visiting my ancestral village in China for the first time in August 2007. What I had before then was 5 generations from my grandfather downwards and nowhere near the number of names that you now have. Not in my wildest dream did I dare hope then to find any information beyond my grandfather. You could imagine the excitement and thrill I had when I handed my zupu with my name included within it. From that it launches my interest and passion in Chinese genealogy. Since then I have being able to trace13 lineages of interrelated families to me of other surnames. 11 of the lineages are shown in the chart below:  From your posting you have not mentioned from where in China did your ancestors originated before venturing to Indonesia. If you are able to know the ancestral village, it is likely you may be able to locate a copy of your zupu/jiapu. My grandfather had a younger brother that went to Java but unfortunately the respective descendants had lost contact with each other. From what I can make out regarding generation names quoted from your posting, they do not correspond to any of the two generation poems from my wife’s branch as shown below:  As far as genealogy is concern, I can make much time available for you. If you do not mind roughing out, you can stay in my house as there are three spare rooms for the next few months. If it is not too much of a rush now, your visit could also coincide with attending a public talk on Chinese genealogy hosted by a university (this university is supported mainly by the Chinese community) on 28 May 2011. For the talk see the posting by Edmund in this Forum at: Re: Free Chinese Genealogy Talk on Zupu « Reply #46 on May 3, 2011, 9:54am » Read more: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=names&action=display&thread=1286&page=4#ixzz1Mh0qN6riOr siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=names&action=display&thread=1391Philip |
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Post by vincenti on May 19, 2011 18:17:11 GMT -5
Hi Philip, That was a wonderful result you have achieved. I can only envy you  I will try to find any information on the graveyard or temples around places they lived. Maybe I can find the originating county of the 余 from Indramayu. For your info: From my mother's line, her mother's side. The oldest name was Gho (吳, Wu) Mo-Tjio from XiaMen, one of the son named Gho Goan-Tee. He was a kapitan of Padang. One of his grandson was famous as the first classical musicians of Singapore, Goh Soon-Tioe. GGT passed away in 1914 in Padang, I still need to get a bigger pictures of his headstone to decipher chinese characters. From my mother's line, her father's side, Lie Boen-Eng. I do not have a lot of contacts with the Lies (mu+tzi). They lived in Padang before they move to Java but they might come to Indonesia through Bengkulu Island (or maybe via Penang like most Lies in Padang). LBE father's name was Lie Bian-Goan. The name is the same like the first Sumatra's newspaper owner. I guess this might be the same. I don't have enough time to conduct full research. My raw data seems sufficient for a fundamental research. Only time races. Old people are passing away and many information too. In June a friend of mine will collect headstone pictures in the area, maybe we can have some progress. Rgds, Vincent. Hi Vincenti, What you have now is already more than what I had before visiting my ancestral village in China for the first time in August 2007. What I had before then was 5 generations from my grandfather downwards and nowhere near the number of names that you now have. Not in my wildest dream did I dare hope then to find any information beyond my grandfather. You could imagine the excitement and thrill I had when I handed my zupu with my name included within it. From that it launches my interest and passion in Chinese genealogy. Since then I have being able to trace13 lineages of interrelated families to me of other surnames. 11 of the lineages are shown in the chart below: From your posting you have not mentioned from where in China did your ancestors originated before venturing to Indonesia. If you are able to know the ancestral village, it is likely you may be able to locate a copy of your zupu/jiapu. My grandfather had a younger brother that went to Java but unfortunately the respective descendants had lost contact with each other. From what I can make out regarding generation names quoted from your posting, they do not correspond to any of the two generation poems from my wife’s branch as shown below: Attachments:
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Post by adriirawan14 on Jul 9, 2011 3:36:38 GMT -5
Hello,
My clan is also Ie and my ancestor was from Lasem, Probolinggo, Indonesia.
As my colleague said, the first generation that landed on Lasem was Ie Soen Po ( 1723 - 1796).
My great-grandfather name is Ie Khee Poen, the sixth generation by the way. I don't exactly know his birth and death.
Moreover, he has several children, one of whom is Ie Thwan Tjip, my grandfather.
And my father Ie Hien Kie, born in 1953.
I myself, was born in 1992 and not given a Chinese name.
I hope this can help you in tracing the clan.
Regards,
Adri
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Post by philiptancl on Jul 9, 2011 10:21:25 GMT -5
Hi Adri, To find your family records in order to establish your ancestry back to China, your need to know at least the names of your earlier ancestors in Indonesia in Chinese characters. This would especially be required for Ie Soen Po and from which ancestral village in China he originated from. There could be a chance that he and his subsequent generations might have reported back the birth of sons of successive generations to your ancestral hall in China. If so their names in Chinese characters would also be useful. You might be able to find their names in Chinese characters and name of their ancestral place in China engraved on their gravestones. Their ancestral tablets in the family alter could also be an important place to explore. I know of one Chinese Indonesian that has family alter with ancestral tablets that contained ancestral details written on paper encased inside the tablets. When he wrote to me a couple of years ago, he said he had two camps within the family having opposing views as to whether to open up the tablets in order to extract the information. I did not know whether the family has done sp since. However I heard of a case in Malacca whether the descendants had migrated and the family house is kept locked up. A few years ago, one descendant came back for a visit and the local historian did went into the house with him and together did manage to extracted the paper encased within the tablets and copied out the ancestral details before placing papers back into the tablets. I attach the images for the two cases below:  Philip |
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Post by Ah Gin on Jul 9, 2011 17:28:27 GMT -5
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Post by adriirawan14 on Jul 10, 2011 11:19:14 GMT -5
Thanks for the advices, Philip.
I might get some difficulties due to the family cemetery and the tablets are on Lasem.
It's quite far from my place, Surabaya.
However, I will take a look for some pictures of family gatherings if there's any, as soon as possible.
Regards,
Adri
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Post by philiptancl on Jul 11, 2011 3:53:06 GMT -5
Hi Adri,
I do not know momentous it is going to be for you should you eventually find your ancestry beyond Ie Soen Po. If it is just for cursory interest, then I do agree with you that going from Surabaya to Lasem or Probolinggo would pose some difficulties. After all, you probably could already establish 9 generations as from I could establish from what you had explained in the Forum.
For most other families anywhere they could, at best, trace their roots to no more than five or six generations. Your nine generations may already look great by comparison. However no other culture has a comparable history of keeping family records as the Chinese and for doing so over such an extended period of time. For Chinese genealogy having nine generations is quite insignificant.
Finding out the name of your ancestral village in China and your ancestors' name in Chinese characters will be just only the start. If you should consider going to Lasem from Surubaya to look at the family cemetery and family tablets so as to achieve that is itself already of considerable trouble, it is better not to pursue the matter any further. Much more needs to be done.
Philip
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