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Post by FayChee on Apr 4, 2013 11:29:37 GMT -5
Wow! You just lite my fire again Twoupman! I've got to get to China! But today I'm going to the Asian Food Store to get Ching Ming supplies ...........
Fay Chee
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Post by laohuaqiao on Apr 4, 2013 13:54:51 GMT -5
twoupman, In regards to the origin of the Sen/Sin/Xian surname, there is suggestion that the Heshan Xian zupu, written during the Manchu emperor Guangxu era in 1887 is the source of confusion. According to this article on Heshan government's website, waishi.heshan.gov.cn/Article/ShowArticle.asp?ArticleID=327 , the writer questioned the accuracy of the zupu. Basically, the zupu claimed the Xians are descendants of the 10th son of the Emperor Wen of Zhou Dynasty, about 3100 years ago, effectively made them Han people. Whereas, the article said Xians was a well-known clan among the Baiyue people in the south as early as 1600 years ago. The most famous personality was lady Sinn, whom I mentioned in an earlier post. There were economic and social advantages of being labeled a Han rather than a member of the minority group. These advantages were the motivation behind the zupu's claims. When I get a chance, I'll give more details of the article.
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Post by twoupman on Apr 4, 2013 15:54:23 GMT -5
laohuaqiao, Thanks for the headsup as I also read similar articles but I was skeptical about the 3000+ years origin but believe the Baiyue origin is probably more credible (just my hunch). It does not explain why at Zhujixiang the Sin surname showed a Guangzhou origin as it does not correlate with the southward migration concept or this clan actually lived there for a period of time. Any further thoughts? twoupman houseofchinn.com
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msen
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Posts: 59
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Post by msen on Apr 4, 2013 17:45:41 GMT -5
Thank you twoupman and laohuaqiao for the research, detail and locations. I DO have a lot to learn; it is an education with online teachers ; ) So my village would be either in the area of Foshan, Nanhai or Panyu? Yes, FayChee, please get to China to see your relatives and then visit mine! It would be neat IF we were related. Oh, where is that death certificate. I shall call, again tomorrow. Now to read the links listed.. Thanks, msen
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Post by laohuaqiao on Apr 5, 2013 10:03:09 GMT -5
twoupman, I'm curious about that too. I think we have to confirm first whether the Zhujixiang surname info is based on local records kept during the 1100-1300 migration period or a compilation based on the zupus of clans in the Pearl River delta.
msen, We are questioning the origin of the Sen/Sin/Xian, casting doubt on some of the zupus. Your father and Jimmy Sien came from Ping Ling in Hok Shan, that hasn't changed.
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msen
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Post by msen on Apr 5, 2013 20:11:15 GMT -5
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Post by laohuaqiao on Apr 5, 2013 23:22:43 GMT -5
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Post by douglaslam on Apr 6, 2013 5:52:26 GMT -5
From my observation here in Sydney, Australia, Ùþ Xian, Sen family name is prominent amongst the people from Gao Yiu ¸ßÒª, other notable ones are Ha ÏÄ, Choy ²Ì, ChuÖì, and SoÌK family names. I gain this knowledge from my decade working in Chinatown throughout the 1980s. I haven't seen anyone mention the likelihood of Gao Yiu being the starting point of it all.
The Gao Yiu people are the only ones amongst the emigrants from Pearl River Delta still engaged in traditional market gardening. They are very united as an entity, have valuable property holdings in Chinatown, built their own temple way back in the 19th. century and has a block of old home units next to the temple as cheap housing for their folks. It is something we can only look on in admiration for their ancestors' foresight.
As to Ching Ming and how everyone is trying to outdo each other in gimmickry to offer the dear departed in the afterlife. It really is over the top. I stick to the traditional. I send money to China each year for Ching Ming. The people living in my house perform the rituals on my behalf, as they too are related to me three or four generations back. The big item is one medium roast pig plus the usual gold and silver bars, paper money etc. I don't think there is any those new age gadgets like mobile phones, and ipad. It detracts from the true meaning of Ching Ming.
Ching Ming observance is one of those intangible things that define us as a people. Other cultures may look to it as bizarre. So be it. I bet they wish they had something like ours to hold the people together. Let us celebrate and impress on our younger generations to carry on.
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msen
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Post by msen on Apr 6, 2013 8:17:55 GMT -5
Douglaslam,
I have seen quite a few "Sen" males that were on passenger lists and came to the USA. And the name, as you know, can also probably be found in the Ancestry World search. I have a list of them but can not trace them to my father, Chuck Sen, or his cousin Jimmy Sien. In fact, if I did not know that they were alive, I probably would not find anything because they seemed to avoid or were overlooked in census and other lists that are readily available. If my village people have records or memory of them (born early 1900's) I will be able to know IF the name was Sen, from the village or if the "i" was dropped by the American clerks taking info for forms etc. Yes, anything that creates "buzz" will be used by marketing to spin and sell. Here in the US Midwest I help, as a volunteer, to run 2 heritage museums but re-creation instead of preservation is the push. It is an uphill battle and so I am so pleased to be finding my own heritage and absorbing the culture and customs. My biological Sis, who I will visit in the future, is so lucky to have lived always near a Chinatown and as a youth, with cousin Jimmy Sien (her informally adoptive Papa). Yes, if one lives their heritage they absorb it, even without knowing the ancestors. Yes, for those of us that seek our heritage, this forum is a treasure. Thank you, msen
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Post by FayChee on Apr 9, 2013 21:52:55 GMT -5
Mara, I walked around the graves where my dad is buried and this was the only headstone with a name close to Sen (Sun)......I didn't have time to go to the other Association's graves to look, so there could still be more that I've missed. Fay Chee Attachments:
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Post by lachinatown on Apr 9, 2013 22:14:21 GMT -5
sorry Fay Chee, the surname is Chin.
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Post by FayChee on Apr 10, 2013 18:56:59 GMT -5
Oh, my mistake........thanks for catching that Lachinatown!
Fay Chee
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msen
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Posts: 59
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Post by msen on Apr 10, 2013 19:16:28 GMT -5
Fay Chee, Thank you for thinking of me. And, on some American records on ancestry I notice that the Sen is listed as the first name. And other times in the middle as part of the full name. So does the word Sen mean something when it is part of the name?
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Post by twoupman on Apr 10, 2013 19:45:33 GMT -5
msen, Please refer to my posting #59 where my last sentence said: " Later it was simplified to 冼 and has remained so as a surname character only." In other word it does not have any meaning other than being a surname character. twoupman houseofchinn.com
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msen
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Post by msen on Apr 11, 2013 11:10:35 GMT -5
Yes, I see. In my rambling searches I came upon the 9 plus names of Dr. Sun Yat-sen and it becomes confusing. You are right, I need to stay on track. msen
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