Question about altars or frames to hold family jiapu

[ginagaladriel]

Good morning everyone, hope you are all doing well.

My family used to have what we called altar, which held what we called funerary silk which included the names of ancestors and their birth/death dates, it was brought to Panama when either my great-great-grandfather or great-grandfather moved to Panama.

I would like to know if it has a proper name, and what would be the proper measurements to recreate one, including if if needs to be done on an specific material:

This is the photo of how it looked (black frame with red silk paper, inside was either a silk or parchment paper)




And this is how it looked in the inside (unfortunately neither exists anymore but in photos, and my aunt that could have explained this to us, can't speak anymore  ), Also if this is not a proper jiapu, what would it be called :

[gckimm]

Hi Gina: The item on the altar is called a shenwei 神位, which could be translated as a place or seat for a spirit or spirits. The same term is used for plaques or tablets representing gods or goddesses. If you could see the rest of the characters, those covered by the photo in front, you would probably see these two characters at the very bottom. The plaque on the altar has a very typical inscription for a family altar, stating that it represents all of the ancestors of the family. The usual inscription is something like this: "Place of the honored spirits of successive generations of the ___ (surname) Family" or ____ 門堂上歷代祖先神位. The fact that the frame also contained a genealogical record inside is rather unusual; it is more common for records to be kept separately. However, it was probably considered a wise, as well as respectful, place to retain those records. I would say the records you have, which we have discussed previously, are not a jiapu because that term usually refers to a book. They are also not a family tree chart (or shixitu 世系圖). I would just call them family records.

[douglaslam]

gckimm hits the nail on the head. In photo #1, the generic altar or 神位 is still seen in most homes in China or homes steep in traditions any where . It is easy to replicate though not as nicely presented as this one here in a black frame. Gina, I can order one for you in China next time.

[ginagaladriel]

Thank you very much Greg!! I truly appreciate your reply and answer (as always, you don't cease to amaze me with your knowledge).

Douglas, Yes that would be wonderful, I can send you the money when you are closer to your next trip, I would require an estimate so I know the amount to send you. Fai, has not replied my last question, but I guess he is quite busy or having fun since it's the weekend I am still working to get as much information as possible from my family in Panama, it is important to know who are already registered and who are missing, in that way we don't duplicate or leave anyone out.

Much appreciated once again! 

[ginagaladriel]

Douglas, would we be able to store a replica of the family records inside it? even if it's made smaller? 

[ginagaladriel]

Yay, Fai replied to my message, and has being so gracious to share three other images of my family registry, I feel so lucky! 

[douglaslam]

Gina, I tend to agree with gckimm that "the frame also contained a genealogical record inside is rather unusual; it is more common for records to be kept separately." You mean to use your genealogy record as a back support as well?

If it can be done in Panama, I suggest you try Panama City first. Shipping something with a pane of glass could be messy. There is little advantage to be gained.

My next trip to China could be nine months away. A similar framed altar cloth representing the spiritual seat of the Chengs would certainly be made by computer stitching these days.

[ginagaladriel]

Yes, that is correct, and I'm well aware of the cost of shipping due to the glass, it is something I told my aunt, but  I will tell her again of other options.

But yes, I think my aunt would like to keep the family record inside the altar as it is how she has always known it to be, and I think we all (in the family) would like to honor the wishes of who made/ordered the frame originally as much as possible (without breaking any rules).

Where would the family record be kept if we order a different kind of altar (that does not hold the records I mean) (for cost effectiveness in shipping)

[douglaslam]

Gina, I admire and endorse you and your family's insistence in maintaining traditions, your pride in your Chinese roots, honouring your ancestors' memories for posterity and all those intangibles that distinguish you in the whole known universe. These attributes are rarely found among us. We can all learn from you and be inspired by you. I am proud to associate with your search. It spurs me on to extend what little help I can offer you.

I am more concerned about packing than the cost of shipping. The family record, like any thing else dear to you could simply be kept in a safe and secure place at home. If you have a bank safe deposit box, consider it as family jewel and stow it there. As far as I know it is not an object to be placed at the family altar.

[ginagaladriel]

Douglas, 

I truly appreciate your words, and for all your help! I do not have words enough to say thank you or show it.

I will send my aunt the options that we have, in any way she would like to go, we still have time to plan, the good thing is that now I have something to tell her about the family record and remake of the altar. 

Mr. Fai has sent me other images, and two special notes, he has been the most gracious to help me know my ancestors family, he even talked to a villager that is 100 years old, and he has told him a bit of my great-grandfather (at least stories that he heard) it is almost the same as my grandpa told me, my father and his sisters.

I am going to write Mr. Fai with a more complete story about Chen Chi Fat, and send him other photos, like family pictures. 

I feel so lucky and blessed for all the help I have received and keep receiving! ♥ 

Now more than ever I would like to be able to visit my ancestral village and be able to pay honor, and make it possible to have a return of the family to the city in a way (Greg explained me the term "return to the ancestral village" even if I have never been there, and it feels my heart with joy to be able to do that in name of my grandfather or at least someone in my direct family to be able to do this.

[douglaslam]

Gina, you have chosen the right web site among thousands to air you and your family's quest. I certainly hope this is just the first step of your family's journey.

I think Fai is embracing you as one of his own. Do you know if you're in the same generation as him? You might even be one above him, an aunt to him, no less. Hehe.

I can promise you this, if you or you aunt or siblings plan to visit TPT next September, I'll forgo any plan I may have of going elsewhere, just to guide you and translate for you. I can meet you on arrival at Guangzhou Airport, and be with you every step of the way to your ancestral village.

I have already made plans to visit New Zealand next May. September is only nine months away. Start counting down now. You can fulfil the wishes of your great-grandfather, grandfather, and everyone and anyone after them to return to where that journey started back in the 19th. century. Good luck.

[ginagaladriel]

Douglas,

That thought makes me really happy (both that Fai considers me one of his own, and the thought of being able to visit China and get to meet you) I am sharing this with three of my aunts and several of my g-grandpa's grandkids (my uncles from my grandfather's siblings side)  I hope they get as happy as I am with this and that the flame to visit China and our ancestor's village is ignited in them too.

Thank you so much!

[douglaslam]

Gina, Fai appears to me a a hard man at the same time as he is patient, kind and thoughtful in his response to your queries. You have moved him by your sincerity. You won him because he had gone to the trouble to talk to the oldest man in the village to learn more, to satisfy his own curiosity.

Let me assure you: you and your party will be welcome with open arms when you do take the next step. The Party Secretary may even arrange an official welcome. He is No.1 there. I can fill you in on the etiquette,and things to do. You'll probably not find your ancestral home but Fai showed me the likely site. Your party will have a chance to make thanksgiving for a safe homecoming to your ancestors in a ritual. It is something your great-grandfather and grandfather would cherish.

Food for thought, Gina.

[ginagaladriel]

I would love to learn the proper etiquette, I am still waiting for my family's reply, but I am hoping with all my heart to be able to return to our ancestral village in name of my grandfather and great-grandfather as soon as possible. 

I am so thankful that Mr. Fai took his time to contact the eldest in the village, it means a lot for me!