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Post by kcchung on Mar 13, 2017 17:13:01 GMT -5
By the way - used this tool to extract the Chinese characters from the image into text which can then be used in online translators. www.i2ocr.com/free-online-chinese-traditional-ocrIt correctly transferred a good percentage into text. You have to check the transfer closely as not all characters were transferred correctly. Sending the resulting text often created humorous translations
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Post by kcchung on Mar 13, 2017 21:26:48 GMT -5
Jason Jason - I'm trying to map the places you put in your post and compare it to where I have located my FIL village. Mong San is the name of my FIL village - You called it Wang Shan. In the map I have imbedded shows 3 yellow stars. One star is town of Xinhui and the lower 2 stars reflect my FIL and MIL village. So I'm trying to locate where 洋邊/Yang Bian/"Ocean Side is ? This is in Guangdong province, right? Ginny
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Post by jasonwu on Mar 14, 2017 22:16:01 GMT -5
Hi Ginny, Sorry I haven't been online lately to see your messages! I'm glad you were able to find help from those around to do translations. And yes, I have seen image-to-text translators such as the website you posted above. It's amazing how far technology has come. In response to your comment about how far back the genealogical information goes, in Guangdong, it is common to address the first ancestor to enter the province as the first generation. Perhaps we are inclined to do so because, firstly, it gives us a measurement of how long our ancestors have lived in this land and, secondly, those who settled in Guangdong during the Song Dynasty were usually government officials taking care of administrative matters such as salt harvest supervision and were worthy of being highlighted in one's ancestry. In spiritual tablets, gravestones, and genealogical records, the descendants are numbered by generation in respect to this forefather. However, this doesn't mean that pre-Cantonese ancestors are not documented; in fact, some records list ancestors going as far back as the Yellow Emperor (circa. 2600 BCE) in their preface. For example, I am identified as 28th generation Wu in my genealogical records in respect to my 1st generation forefather, an Imperial Inspector of Guangdong, however, I am over 110th generation Wu in relation to the progenitor who obtained this surname. As for the location of Yang Bian, it is in the same township as Mong San and is quite literally across the road. Please click this link to see the Google Maps directions for walking to Yang Bian from Mong San. Google estimates a 27 minute stroll. Let me know if you have any more questions! Jason
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Post by kcchung on Mar 16, 2017 21:37:27 GMT -5
Thank you Jason - found it, I wasn't looking so close.
Ginny
P.S. Thought I would share - this is my FIL family name 10 generations 德茂趈群美功高仕發祥 for when someone marries in his family. I didn't know enough to ask if this was the entire poem at the time. When he told me the name changes when you marry - I had just asked him what were the different names in the cycle. The one in red would be the cycle my husband would have fallen in.
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Post by jasonwu on Mar 17, 2017 9:37:16 GMT -5
Ginny, Historically, these names were given to men when they became an adult at 20 years of age, however, in the Siyi region, it is common for men to obtain a generational name when they are married since they are approximately 20 at that time. The correct term for this would be a courtesy name which you can read more about by clicking this link. In some clans, such as my mother's, the courtesy name is actually given at adulthood while at marriage an art name is received instead to be used as a generational name. Read more about art names in this article. While a generational poem may exist for the art name/courtesy name, some fathers would name their children with a generational character of their choice for given names. In other parts of China, it is more common for the generation poem to be applied to the given names of clan members while the courtesy and art names are up to the namer's discretion. Overall, rules vary from region to region and clan to clan. As for the generational poem, it isn't uncommon for clans to have just 10 characters. However, perhaps your FIL only remembered this verse of the poem because it included his generation. Again, the rules for these poems also vary from clan to clan. It seems that your FIL's poem is a 2 phrase poem of 5 characters each. To compare, my paternal generational poem is 10 phrases of 4 characters each (40 characters in total) while my maternal generational poem is 8 phrases of 5 characters each (also 40 characters, however, the last 20 characters were added to the original 20 characters when the clan was nearing the end of their poem). I skimmed the Chung Uk Tsuen genealogy book but I didn't see any poem in there. If only there were a way for you to contact your FIL's village in Xinhui to ask whether this poem you have is complete.
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Post by Doug 周 on Mar 17, 2017 10:32:01 GMT -5
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Post by kcchung on Mar 18, 2017 19:52:52 GMT -5
Thank you Jason and Doug - I am traveling right now and will look into this further when I return home.
When I started this project I expected to be working primarily with the notes from the interviews of my FIL and MIL over the 30 years and putting it into a story format for them. But those notes sparked questions on trying to understand some of the things they said in passing. That expanded the scope of the overall project as I tried to set the stage for my children to explain some of the things in their beloved grandparent's lives.
I am so thankful on the generosity of the members of this website to help me understand some of these intricacies.
Ginny
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Post by Doug 周 on Mar 18, 2017 23:26:47 GMT -5
That's one of the things about family history. Every twist and turn affords a new story and new things to investigate. That is why they say genealogy is a never-ending endeavor. Good luck on your research
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Post by kcchung on Apr 4, 2017 12:30:44 GMT -5
Jason Regarding your earlier post I then did a quick Google search to find that a Chung village in Hong Kong posted the Chung Clan Genealogy book of Xinhui County on their website:
Page 3 - Table of Contents - see 洋邊/Yang Bian and 網山/Wang Shan genealogy, descendants of 琨英/Kun Ying and 景行/Jing Xing, on page 156. Page 11 - Migration - 江西/Jiangxi > 南京/Nanjing > 南雄/Nanxiong > 鶴山/Heshan > many villages, including 洋邊/Yang Bian and 網山/Wang Shan. Page 26 - Family Tree - see 景行/Jing Xing in the 9th generation; 洋邊/Yang Bian and 網山/Wang Shan are listed under his name. Page 56, Page 57, Page 58 - Descriptions - the 1st to 7th generation ancestors are relevant to your FIL's genealogy.
However, they only scanned pages 1-155 while the family tree of your FIL's village is documented on page 156, which is a very unfortunate coincidence. However, you may try contacting the website creator at chunguktsuen@outlook.com and ask if they'd be nice enough to send you the next few pages.
I heard back from Cliff Chung today which is good news. The bad news is he only scanned the first 155 pages as it related to his family before he returned it to the village. I sent him details in the hope he may return in the future to get the remaining document.
Fingers crossed - I'll get lucky!
Ginny
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Post by jasonwu on Apr 4, 2017 18:14:18 GMT -5
Ginny,
I hope you'll hear back with good news in the future!
Jason
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Post by lomeasoo on Mar 17, 2023 8:42:25 GMT -5
Hi kcchung, Would your mother-in-law happen to hail from Fou Sek in Dou San Township? (斗山鎮浮石村)? Hi Jason Hope all is well! With much help, I have gathered a lot of info from Henry Tom and others including locating my ancestral Village and Zhao zupu. My grandfather Tong Tai Chew is from Fushi Fow Shek 3rd subdivision . 居仁 /Kui Yan aka灶背/JoPui (趙/Jew I don’t speak or read Chinese. I Have watched many YouTube’s to try and see the 3rd subdivision of Fow Shek but it’s difficult Henry has also helped with the Zupu page with the names above my grandfather Tong Tai Chew (second from bottom Chong da). Rui tang is my father’s older brother. My fathers name was York Tong Chew. He is actually listed in the zupu beside his brother Suey Tong Chew (Rui Tang) Here are the zupu page names 宗炎 zōng yán 官佑 guān yòu 鏡全 jìng quán 蟲大 chóng dà 瑞棠 ruì táng It seems that you have a lot of knowledge. Perhaps you may have more info that you can share on perhaps the top ancestor name? Or any on Song defendants from Fushi? Thank you! Lisa Thank you! Lisa
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Post by lomeasoo on Mar 17, 2023 8:45:20 GMT -5
Hi kcchung, Would your mother-in-law happen to hail from Fou Sek in Dou San Township? (斗山鎮浮石村)? Hi Jason Hope all is well! With much help, I have gathered a lot of info from Henry Tom and others including locating my ancestral Village and Zhao zupu. My grandfather Tong Tai Chew is from Fushi Fow Shek 3rd subdivision . 居仁 /Kui Yan aka灶背/JoPui (趙/Jew I don’t speak or read Chinese. I Have watched many YouTube’s to try and see the 3rd subdivision of Fow Shek but it’s difficult Henry has also helped with the Zupu page with the names above my grandfather Tong Tai Chew (second from bottom Chong da). Rui tang is my father’s older brother. My fathers name was York Tong Chew. He is actually listed in the zupu beside his brother Suey Tong Chew (Rui Tang) Here are the zupu page names 宗炎 zōng yán 官佑 guān yòu 鏡全 jìng quán 蟲大 chóng dà 瑞棠 ruì táng It seems that you have a lot of knowledge. Perhaps you may have more info that you can share on perhaps the top ancestor name? Or any on Song defendants from Fushi? Thank you! Lisa Thank you! Lisa
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Post by lomeasoo on Mar 17, 2023 8:46:15 GMT -5
Descendants not defendants! Also the zupu page line is 119
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Post by jasonwu on Mar 26, 2023 12:34:55 GMT -5
Hi Lisa,
Glad you're already getting started by having the lineage number of your line of descent in the c. 2004 Fow Shek Chew Genealogy. I can't tell you too much about your recent ancestors, as there's typically little to no description of individuals in large compilations of entire clan genealogies such as yours, unless you had a quite outstanding ancestor whose biography might be found towards the beginning or end of the book.
"3rd Area" in the Village Database refers to a former subdivision in Toishan County - today, it coincides with the town divisions of 冲蔞 Chonglou, 斗山 Doushan, and 都斛 Duhu (浮石 Fow Shek, now Fushi in Mandarin Pinyin, is found within 斗山鎮 Doushan Town today). Some time in the last century (I think?), Fow Shek, being more like a township comprised of many hamlets and villages, was subdivided into ten divisions called 坊 Fang. 居仁 Kui Yan / 灶背 Jo Pui, the western-most village of Fow Shek, is now called 九坊 Jiu Fang "9th Division" - click here for Google Maps link.
I can't find many visuals for 9th Division, but here is a Toishanese YouTuber who filmed the main gate of Fow Shek, along with some graves, village homes, and ancestral halls in 3rd Division and other central hamlets of Fow Shek:
At around the 34:00 timestamp, you'll see the portraits of the 18 Song emperors housed in the Senior's Club of 4th Division - the Fow Shek lineage is descended from the 2nd Emperor of the Song dynasty, Emperor Taizong. You can find other videos of Fow Shek by searching for its name in Chinese: www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%E6%B5%AE%E7%9F%B3
-Jason
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Post by lomeasoo on Mar 26, 2023 17:38:38 GMT -5
This helps so much. Thank u Jason!!! Lisa
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