Family name poem for Chiu / Zhao family 趙

[kcchung]

My father in law told me, when a man gets married, it is customary for him to change his first name to signify the beginning of a new life. Each family follows a specific set of 10 names, where each name represents which generation the man falls.  I had my Father in law write the 10 names for his family - Chung line 鍾

I am attempting to find what the 10 names are for my Mother in law's family - Chiu line. 趙  I was lucky enough to have copies of their wedding papers where it details 3 generations - so it would tell me 3 of the 10 names.  I don't know where these 3 names fall in the 10 generations.  The following was part of her wedding papers:

She was a descendant of Chiu Di Chun , 趙大進

Great-grandfather married name Ming Geen, 明健

Grandfather married name Jim Kwan, 占群

Father married name Wing Bon, 永邦

So this tells me that the first charachter in these 3 names are part of the 10 in the name poem.

• Ming Geen, 明健
• Jim Kwan, 占群
• Wing Bon, 永邦

I know this is a shot in the dark, but I am wondering if anyone knows what the 10 names would be or how I could go about finding it out.  I have tried asking the current generation and although they knew it existed, none of them knew the 'name poem' as they referred to it.

Any help is very much appreciated.

[kcchung]

I'm still looking for the generational poem for Chiu family. I found this. I assume I'm supposed to be looking for the 2nd character to see if it is listed in this poem. It looks like 2 of the characters in the poem.

I am not sure this is my family poem. I know 3 generations:

grandfather - Wing-Bon Chiu 趙 永 邦
great grandfather - Jim Kwan Chiu 趙 占 群
great great grandfather - Jung Pak Chiu 趙 宗 栢

Family tree of emperors
Main article: Family tree of the Song emperors

The Generation poem used by the Zhao family was "若夫，元德允克、令德宜崇、師古希孟、時順光宗、良友彥士、登汝必公、不惟世子、與善之從、伯仲叔季、承嗣由同。"[20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28] The 42 characters were split into three groups of 14 for the offspring of Song Taizu and his two brothers.[29]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_name

[jasonwu]

Hi kcchung,

Would your mother-in-law happen to hail from Fou Sek in Dou San Township? (斗山鎮浮石村)?

[kcchung]

Hi Jason

Her marriage papers indicate the following:
The following identifies their original place of birth,
State Guangdong, 廣東
Province Guangzhou, 廣州
County Xinhui, 新會縣
City Chiu Goy, 潮居都
Parish Yacht (1) Tau, 一圖
9th Street. 九甲
She was a descendant of Chiu Di Chun , 趙大進

I did searches for 趙 generation family poem, I also did searches on 趙大進 to see if I can find out anything further on this person.

I know that the generation family poem does not impact daughters - as they marry out of the family.

Ginny

[jasonwu]

Hi Ginny,

I have found some information about the ancestor 趙大進. In this article which documents the clans and founding ancestors of villages in Xinhui, it states that 趙大進 came from Toishan to found the village 聯和 (Lian He) in 三江鎮 (San Jiang Township) during the reign of the Song Emperor 宋端宗 (Duanzong) some time between 1276 and 1278.

If we check the village database from villagedb.friendsofroots.org/, we find that there are several documented Chiu villages in this township:

三江鄉 / Sam Kong Heung (27 villages)
齒德 / Chi Tak (趙 / Chiu)
中山 / Chung Shan (趙 / Chiu)
坑口 / Hang hou (趙 / Chiu)
坑美 / Hang May (趙 / Chiu)
谷坑 / kuk HAng (趙 / Chiu)
沙平 / Sar Ping (趙 / Chiu)
新田 / Sun Tin (趙 / Chiu)
塘下 / Tong Ha (趙 / Chiu)
東頭 / Tung Tau (趙 / Chiu)
仁和 / Yan Wo (趙 / Chiu)

However, looking back at the previous article, it states that there were at least two other Chiu ancestors that founded villages in San Jiang, so not all of these villages may have descended from 趙大進.

I'd like to explain the Qing Dynasty administrative divisions (省道府縣鄉都圖甲村), as that is what was used in the marriage certificate of your mother-in-law:

省 is a province
道 refers to a sub division in a 省; a region as opposed to a place
府 is a prefecture in a province
縣 is a county in a prefecture
鄉 is a township in a county
都 refers to a sub division in a 鄉; a region as opposed to a place
圖 refers to a sub division in a 都; a region as opposed to a place
甲 refers to a sub division in a 圖; a region as opposed to a place
村 refers to a village in a 甲

Because these terms have been out of formal use for over a century, and because the majority of modern people do not live in a rural setting, it is hard to give good translations to these characters. Moreover, this specific system is unique to the 四邑 (Siyi) region and you'll find that for the rest of Guangdong and China Qing dynasty administrative divisions generally only stay consistent up until the fifth level (省道府縣鄉). Your MIL's marriage documents, although written during the Republican period, probably used the dynastic system because it was the system that was in place since the Song dynasty, i.e. since her village was founded, and the people in Siyi had yet to adapt, or were reluctant to adapt for the sake of sticking with tradition, to the new system.

Finally, moving on to the main reason why you posted in the first place. Unfortunately, I did not find any information about the generational poem you are looking for. I can, however, assure you that the poem used by the Song royal clan is very much relevant to your MIL's ancestors. Toward the end of the Song dynasty, the royal family had retreated so far away from the Mongols that they ended up in Xinhui. As a result, many of the distant relatives of the last Song Emperor who were following as entourage settled in and around Xinhui. According to this Wikipedia article, there are royal descendants in the following places in Siyi:

台山斗山鎮浮石 (Fushi Village, Doushan Township, Taishan City) This village used the generational poem you posted about in your previous post.
新會古井鎮霞路 (Xialu Village, Gujing Township, Xinhui District) This village used the generational poem you posted about in your previous post.
新會三江 (Sanjiang Township, Xinhui District)
江門滘頭 (Jiaotou Subdistrict, Jiangmen City)
珠海斗門崑山 (Kunshan Village, Doumen Township, Zhuhai City)

I will leave you with this link to several Chiu genealogy records from Xinhui County on the Family Search website. Each of these books recognize their clan's connection to the Song bloodline and mention the three generational poems for Emperor Taizu and his two brothers. I will let you know if I find something exciting. Otherwise, best of luck with your genealogical endeavors!

-Jason

[kcchung]

Wow! Let me repeat myself - Wow!

I was telling my husband this would be so much easier if I could read Chinese and was familiar with Chinese genealogical websites. You are AMAZING!

So the village my MIL is from City Chiu Goy, 潮居都 would most likely be part of one of these others you listed?
Based on your explaination above - it's not really a village but a sub division of Xinhui.

• City Chiu Goy, 潮居都
• Parish Yacht (1) Tau, 一圖
• 9th Street. 九甲

My husband and I did locate where her village was in relation to my FIL village via google map.


 

As I've been pulling apart the information on my FIL and MIL marriage records, you answered one of one of my next questions regarding Toishan.

Ginny

[kcchung]

Jason
Can I ask if you can find similar information on my FIL ancestor?  I had previous posts to figure out where his family originated from but never thought to look at his ancestor, himself.

According to his wedding papers he was descendant from Chung See Ging 鐘思敬 from "Wing Churn".  Someone previously told me that  is the Cantonese (Wihng Chyun) rendition of Yingchuan (穎川)

Talking to my husband's 1st cousin, I found out that the marriage papers I have on his parents are not the norm.  His cousin told me that this is only normal if the bride and groom are from different villages.  I have been very lucky as all these various keys of his parent's lineage came from this set of papers.

All this history is so fascinating to me.

Ginny

[jasonwu]

Ginny,

The "city," "parish," and "street" are each subdivisions of the previous. So if we were to use it in a mailing address, it would look something like:

廣東省廣肇羅道廣州府新會縣壽寧鄉潮居都一圖九甲？？村
or
?? Village, Ninth Division, First District, Chiu Goy Region, Sau Ning Township, Sun Wui County, Canton Prefecture, Canton-Zhaoqing-Luoding Territory, Guangdong Province.

To compare, my ancestors came from:

廣東省廣肇羅道廣州府新寧縣常德鄉海晏都十三圖大湖堡舊湖村
or
Old Lake Village, Grand Lake Fort, Thirteenth District, Hoi Ngan Region, Seung Dak Township, Sun Ning County (now Toishan), Canton Prefecture, Canton-Zhaoqing-Luoding Territory, Guangdong Province.

Notice here that the 甲/Gaap/Division is replaced by a 堡/Bou/Fort because for villages with a nearby distinguishable fort, the fort replaces the division. This was most common in Toishan because there were many fortified towns and villages along the sea shore.

As modern urban dwellers, it's hard to comprehend why there would be this many administrative divisions, but we have to understand that with the rural setting that these villages were located in and the number of villages that existed at the time; the lengthy address made it easier to locate these places when GSP's did not exist. You may see this Wiki page for historical divisions in Xinhui.

Now, moving on your the FIL's genealogy. Firstly, Wing Churn/Yingchuan is an ancient prefecture which your FIL's clan identifies their roots with and this is the same for all Chung's across China. Each clan has their own ancient prefecture. For example, my father's clan (吳/Ng) identifies with 延陵/Yin Ling, my mother's clan (伍/Ng) identifies with 安定/On Ding, and my grandmother's clan (李/Lee) identifies with 隴西/Lung Sai. These prefectures pinpoint the origins of our surnames and where our first ancestors were given titles and fiefs. Many of these prefectures no longer exist because they were places from the Tang Dynasty and prior. However, Chinese people still use them to signify their genealogical roots. We use them in ancestral halls, clan associations, and spiritual tablets (ex. Wing Churn Hall, Wing Churn Association of the Chung Clan, "The spiritual tablet of the Chung ancestors from the Wing Churn Prefecture.") Additionally, some surnames originate from the same prefectures; for example, the Chan's also come from Wing Churn.

With the village/clan article from my previous post, I was able to find that your FIL's village 網山/Wang Shan/"Web Hill" exists in 古井/Gu Jing/"Ancient Well" township and was founded by the 鍾/Chung and 許/Hui clans during the reign of the Qing emperor 乾隆/Qianlong (1735-1795). It also states that the another Chung village across the road, called 洋邊/Yang Bian/"Ocean Side," was founded during the reign of the Yuan emperor 至大/Zhida (1308-1311). It's quite possible that your FIL's ancestors moved from Yang Bian to Wang Shan.

I then did a quick Google search to find that a Chung village in Hong Kong posted the Chung Clan Genealogy book of Xinhui County on their website:

Page 3 - Table of Contents - see 洋邊/Yang Bian and 網山/Wang Shan genealogy, descendants of 琨英/Kun Ying and 景行/Jing Xing, on page 156.
Page 11 - Migration - 江西/Jiangxi > 南京/Nanjing > 南雄/Nanxiong > 鶴山/Heshan > many villages, including 洋邊/Yang Bian and 網山/Wang Shan.
Page 26 - Family Tree - see 景行/Jing Xing in the 9th generation; 洋邊/Yang Bian and 網山/Wang Shan are listed under his name.
Page 56, Page 57, Page 58 - Descriptions - the 1st to 7th generation ancestors are relevant to your FIL's genealogy.

However, they only scanned pages 1-155 while the family tree of your FIL's village is documented on page 156, which is a very unfortunate coincidence. However, you may try contacting the website creator at [e-mail] and ask if they'd be nice enough to send you the next few pages.

I hope you enjoy the information! Again, it's great to see that you are so passionate about your husband's family history. Let me know if you have any more questions. Also, please do share with us when you receive the family tree from the Chung Uk Tsuen website.

Cheers,

Jason

[kcchung]

Jason - you amaze me. It is obvious that you've been doing Chinese history for some time. Where I am quite comfortable in American/European research having done it for so long - this is opening a whole new area for me to explore and understand.

I have to tell you - each new fact you send me, I mention to my husband and he is as excited as I am on learning all these details.

I will definitely have to contact the Chung Uk Tsuen website to see if they can share it with me.

I will have to take your word that this is related to my husband's family.  I plan to send some of the text to my sister-in-law for her to translate it for me.

Ginny

[jasonwu]

Ginny,

I am glad that I could help. I still consider myself an amateur genealogist though, as I had just turned 20-years-old a week ago and still lack much experience in the ways of root-tracing. You are definitely right about the benefits of understanding Chinese, and I am super grateful for Language classes being a part of my elementary school curriculum here in Ontario.

Again, hoping you receive a positive response from Chung Uk Tsuen.

Cheers,

Jason

[kcchung]

Ahh Happy birthday! I could definitely help you on the root chasing for western research.  Quite adept there.  This Chinese research is very new territory for me. 

Although the stories I have collected of my husband's parents are important, understanding some of the customs, cultures and beliefs is key also.  That is why I'm digging into some of this background.
 
My SIL was not able to help me, so we will be asking friends in Chinatown to see if they can help with the translations.  The pages were too complex for her to translate.  I was going to wait to hear back from her before I sent an email to HK, but I'll see if can start that discussion going now.

Ginny

[kcchung]

Ahh too bad [e-mail]  is no longer a valid email address - my email bounced. 

Found an article on the gentleman.  He was 84 in 2015.  www.scmp.com/magazines/hk-magazine/article/2037106/tongue-tired-hong-kongs-disappearing-dialects

[jasonwu]

Oh no! I found this Facebook account through the website. Perhaps try sending them a friend request and see if the account is still in use:

www.facebook.com/ChungUkTsuen?fref=ts

Very good article indeed. Asking someone if they've eaten is the go-to way to greet someone in Chinese; it demonstrates older generations' appreciation in being properly nourished and their hospitality in case the answer comes back negative. I love that they've compared the dialects and histories of various subgroups in Hong Kong, a city where so much history and culture has been preserved both spiritually and physically.

I'd like to point out that if we were to compare these dialects to our region of Siyi that Tanka and Hakka would both exist while Weitou would be equivalent to Taishanese, as both Weitou and Taishanese refer to the native languages of their respective regions. The Hakka used to live all throughout Siyi alongside the natives, until cultural differences caused dozens of battles between during the mid-19th century and forced the Hakka to be resettle in Chixi Township, Toishan. Here's a link to the related Wiki article. As for the Tanka, they still lived in their boats until the late 20th century in Siyi. My mother told me that when she was a teenager, approximately in the 1970's, the river outside our town would fill with singing upon dusk and would not stop until dawn. This was because the Tanka were know for their "salt water songs," songs that were sang casually while out on fishing trips or throughout the night during marriages and funerals.

Sorry for steering off course! Hope you are able to hear back from the Facebook account.

Jason

[kcchung]

Jason

I printed out the pages you had identified.  I have a copy of a Chinese-English dictionary.  Decided to go the brute force method and chat with my SIL to have her identify any characters she recognized and narrow down what she doesn't recognize.

Time consuming but it helped me when I was doing German research.  It tends to get repetitive so looking at  these pages I can get the gist of what is being described.  The way I figure i may learn something and possibly expand the number of characters I recognize.

I did spot the FB page but there appears to have been no activity on that page for quite sometime.  I did click the CONNECT button on the website - even though the email didn't work that seemed to go through.  Only time will tell.

Ginny

[kcchung]

Jason

Just back from visiting the church in Chinatown. I met up with a woman there who was able to translate much of the first chart to me (page 56). It was fascinating all of the detail they put in the chart on the man of the 1st generation. Because many of the other generations had repetitive text I'm sure I can good gist of what was being described.

Thank you again.

These generations are so far back from what I was focusing on. I found it interesting they described the primary generation as a man who was given the title of a soldier for the emperor - so long ago. I'll have to look at the other 8 generations to see if any of them moved into farming. Of course a lot happens in 700 years.

Ginny