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Post by Ah Gin on Feb 2, 2009 3:35:36 GMT -5
Henry et al,
Can someone point me to a place on the web where they have summarised the history of the transmigration from the Great Plains of China to the Pearl River Delta or Southern China, circa the Sung Dynasty? Most of our Progenitors would have been part of that Transmigration -- certainly ours (The Gin Clan) fits in that pattern.
I just thought that by having that transmigration history explained, it will make this Thread of Clan Progenitor more complete. It will certainly help young player like me understand why most of our Zupu Books have record to some 30 generations.
Regards, Ah Gin
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Post by Henry on Feb 2, 2009 12:42:36 GMT -5
Ahgin, I have not found any definitive works in English that cover the migrations from the north to the south of China, however, I managed to cobble a few paragraphs and drew up a map - which you can see from my website: mysite.verizon.net/vzepzaui/history1.htmlI was also able to find this startling piece of information from the Internet on the result of the An Lushan rebellion: "As time passed, the demographics of what is now Guangdong slowly shifted to (Han) Chinese-dominance, especially during several periods of massive migration from the north during periods of political turmoil and/or nomadic incursions from the fall of the Han Dynasty onwards. For example, internal strife in northern China following the rebellion of An Lushan resulted in a 75% increase in the population of Guangzhou prefecture between 740s-750s and 800s-810s. As more migrants arrived, the local population was gradually assimilated to Han Chinese culture, or displaced." Much of the discussion about our forefathers going through the Mei Guan (Pass) and the associated story of Hu Fei concubine causing the dramatic exodus from Zhujixiang down into the Pearl River is circa 1273 AD. Tan Hong Zhi, the Tan clan progenitor for Guangdong province came to Zhujixiang in 960 AD to avoid the unrest and civil disorder during the rebellion that led to the establishment of the Sung Dynasty. I believe that while there were 133 surname clans, including the Tan clan, that came during the Hu Fei episode, many clans migrated into Guangdong province prior to circa 1273 AD. Since a generation span is generally considered to be 30 years, and you have around 30 generation in most family/clan genealogy books - this would roughly cover about a 1,000 years which is not too far off for when most of the SiYi clans - which had probably settled in Zhujixiang for a couple hundred years first and then later migrated to the Pearl River Delta. There is an excellent book, China's Imperial Way by Kevin Bishop, 1997 that discusses much of the historical transportation infrastructure in China. Henry
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Post by Ah Gin on Feb 2, 2009 19:00:00 GMT -5
Henry,
Many thanks for your torch light -- very illuminating. I must try to get the Kevin Bishop book in time. I am currently travelling (of all places, I am now in Sydney, Australia), hence have less access to resources that I am used to -- too set in my old ways.
I have not forgotten to do my part, vis-a-vis the Gin Clan Southern Progenitor, ie the Guangzhou Line, just that I want to have the summarised info fairly "correct" before I post it.
Regards, Ah Gin
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Post by laohuaqiao on Feb 10, 2009 16:27:04 GMT -5
As Henry has mentioned, anyone from the Pearl River Delta region of Guangdong, almost surely, will trace their ancestors back to Nanxiong Zhujixiang 南雄珠磯巷 in northern Guangdong province. A little bit of history and geography of China will help to appreciate this origin of our ancestors settling in Siyi. Chinese civilization began and florished in the central plain around and in between the 2 great rivers Changjiang and Huanghe. What separated the Guangdong and Guangxi from the central plain are a series of mountain ranges(or ridges, ling 嶺) running east-west from southern Fujian across Jiangxi 江西 and Hunan 湖南. For this reason, Guangdong- Guangxi region is also know as Lingnan 嶺南 (south of ling). These mountain ridges formed a natural barrier, migration over the mountains to the south was minimal, especially during periods of peace and prosperity. So, for much of history, Lingnan was sparsely populated by different tribal groups of the Yue 越 people, same people as the Vietnamese (hence the name Vietnam 越南 (south of Yue)). Before Chin Emperor unified China, Yue people also lived north of the mountain ranges. During Spring-Automn Period, the state of Yue included the regions in Hunan, Jiangxi, Fujian and southern Zhejiang. Anyway, the nickname for Guangdong is Yue 越 or more commonly 粵. In the mid-800s, during the Tang Dynasty, a paved road was constructed through the Mei Ridge 梅嶺 through the mountain pass Mei Guan 梅關. Zhujixiang or Zhuji Lane in the town of Nanxiong was in the early days a watering post for horses at the southern foot of Mei Ridge. At first migration south was small, Henry's ancestor in 960 AD would be among the early ones. Then the Jin (ancestors of the Manchus from northeast) invaded and finally defeated the Song Dynasty in 1127 and took over the capital in Kaifeng. Song Dynasty was forced to moved its capital to Linan (present Hangzhou) and became know as the Southern Song Dynasty. The first big wave of migration escaping from the warring regions and settling in Nanxiong Zhujixiang began around then. Most of the migrant people stayed within Nanxiong area for the next hundred years or so, asSouthern Song provided a buffer from the northern invaders Then by the mid-1200s the Mongols first defeated the Jins and later the Southern Song Dynasty, uniting China once again and established the Yuan dynasty. While fighting was encroaching further south, more migrated over Mei Ling into Nanxiong and some families in Nanxiong decided to head south into the Pearl River Delta. My clan zupu mentioned the concubine, Su Fei instead of Hu Fei in Henry's account, incident as the reason for the latter migration. While other zupu's from Siyi also stated the concubine incident, I tend to side with other skeptics of this tale. I think escaping from war and civil unrest is strong enough reason to migrate to another region. I have read that some have researched into the records of South Song and found no account of any emperor's concubine escaping from the palace, etc. Most of the zupu's were first written about a hundred years after the families settled in the delta, while China was still ruled by the Mongols; perhaps our ancestors made up the concubine tale because they didn't want to antagonize the Yuan rulers in any way and the concubine tale was politically safe. This is also a good place to mention that we should all take what's written in the zupu's with a grain of salt. Much of the early family histories were passed down by word of mouth. I would think that only families with money could afford to pay someone to write up a genealogy book and one would tend to enhance the family social standings by overstating family links to former emperor's, national scholar/official or national heroes. I have heard many of the family clans have constructed an ancestral temple in Nanxiong Zhujixiang, that different versions of zupu's are widely available for purchase. Nanxiong is not far from the city of Shaoguan 韶關. I do plan to visit there and Mei Guan , hopefully this summer.
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Post by laohuaqiao on Feb 10, 2009 16:49:21 GMT -5
BTW, there was also a second route for migrants to Guangdong, that was by sea from Fujian and Zhejiang. They settled along the the sea coast, Shantou, Chaozhou, etc.
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Post by Henry on Feb 10, 2009 16:54:44 GMT -5
Laohuaqiao,
Thank you for the excellent summary - especially, on the Lingnan desription.
When you travel up to the Mei Guan (Pass) this Summer, I think there is train service to Shaoguan, however, there is only a 2 lane road between Shaoguan and Nanxiong and the bus ride is interesting. In Nanxiong there is a rather well known pagoda in the middle of town that is nice to visit. Across the way from the pagoda is a museum where they display lots of dinosaur eggs - this area is very well known for these petrified dinosaur eggs.
Nanxiong is a small town and it is more practical to take a taxi from Nanxiong to the market town of Zhujixiang where you can visit the Zhujixiang heritage village which has the Zhuji Lane, the well where Hu Fei is reputed to have drowned herself. There is also a small village named Sah Sui tsun, “Sandy Water village” where ancestors of many clans / families found in Sam Yap and Si Yi regions had lived. This village is near the Song Long Qual, “Double Dragon Bridge” and a huge banyan tree that is over 1,000 years old and which still remains quite grand tree to behold. Nearby is a statute of Hu Fei, the imperial concubine, who had fled the palace and caused the initial exodus of families from Zhujixiang to the south, when imperial troops came to Zhujixiang searching for her.
You will also need this taxi to take you up to the MeiGuan and then it is a long walk up to the top of the pass. Chinese American historian, Him Mark Lai described it:
“ In A.D. 716 Zhang Jiuling, pushed the government to construct a good road that pierced the mountain barrier connecting his home region in northern Guangdong to the Yangzi River basin in neighboring Jiangxi Province. This route to Guangdong greatly facilitated immigration and the introduction of Chinese culture and technology from the north. Consequently, northern Guangdong developed rapidly and soon overtook the West River basin to become the most densely populated region of the province. By the Song dynasty, this area became the springboard for rapid colonization of the Pearl River Delta region”
The Zhujixiang heritage village with various clan temples around it is well worth the extra effort that it takes to come this far to visit the MeiGuan.
I know you will enjoy it - I certainly did.
Henry
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Post by Ah Gin on Feb 10, 2009 17:11:11 GMT -5
Lauhuaquio, Many thanks for clarification on the Transmigration history of the a number of Clans who migrated southwards, over the hills, through the Mei Pass, and to the Pearl River Delta region. We really must thanks the events of invasion of "Foreigners of the Great Plain" and Climate Change to motivate our ancestors to find new land in the "Ling Nam". Without their courages move 30 odd generations ago, we probably would still be back in the great plains of China, that is assuming our ancestors genes survived in the first place. Regards, Ah Gin
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Post by laohuaqiao on Feb 10, 2009 17:44:56 GMT -5
Henry, Thanks for the info on Nanxiong Zhujixiang. Somehow I'm not surprised that you have already been there.
Thanks also for the correction of the construction of Mei Guan road, I was off by over a hundred years.
Finally, because many of our ancestors lived in Fujian for many generations before arriving in Guangdong, it's been said Siyi dialect, as exemplified by Taishanese, still retains much of the influence of Fujianese (though I don't know if it's Fuzhou dialect or Minnan, southern Fujianese dialect).
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Post by Henry on Feb 10, 2009 18:13:56 GMT -5
Laohuaqiao,
Forgot to mention, I took a bus from Guangzhou to Shaoguan - I got to see more countryside up close. By the way, when you arrive at the Zhujixiang heritage village, you'll be attacked by hordes of women selling all manner of surname clan booklets. If they do not have what you want - in a few minutes - they will return with the booklet you desire. They also sell dried pressed ducks there too. As you wander around the heritage village you'll immediately notice some of the more wealthy clan temples.
As I understand it, the Taishanese dialect preserves much of the Tang Dynasty vocabulary.
Henry
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Post by laohuaqiao on Feb 10, 2009 18:58:20 GMT -5
Henry, Thanks again for the info.
At some point I'll put together some expressions that are uniquely Taishanese and post them on this board. Seems that frequently someone searching for their ancestral village would not know what region their ancestors came from but if they recall hearing some Chinese expressions from their childhood, that may help identify the region. The obvious example, anyone who calls his/her paternal grandmother "ah ngin" 阿人, that's Taishanese or Siyi dialect.
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Post by philiptancl on Feb 10, 2009 21:19:41 GMT -5
I refer Laohuaqiao reference to Minnan, southern Fujianese dialect. Sometime ago I received the following information regarding the Fujian/ Minnan dialect. I quote below the edited version:
"Fujian/ Minnnan (Fujian/Minnan Hua)
Fujian (Minnan) is:
1. The surviving language of the Tang Dynasty (618-907AD), China's Golden Age of Culture.
Note: The Fujian we hear today may have "evolved" from its original form 2,000 years ago, but it still retains the main elements of the Tang Dynasty Language.
2. Fujianese claimed they are the surviving descendants of the Tang Dynasty. When the Tang Dynasty collapsed, the people of the Tang Dynasty fled South and sought refuge in the Fujian province. Hence, Hokkien called themselves "Tng-lang" (Tang Ren or People of the Tang Dynasty) instead of Hua Lang (Hua Ren).
3. Fujian has 8 tones instead of Mandarin's 4. Linguists claim that ancient languages tend to have more complex tones.
4. Fujian retains the ancient Chinese pronunciation of "K-sounding" endings (for instance, Hak Seng (student), Tua Ok (university), Thak Chek (read a book/study) -- the "k" sounding ending is not found in Mandarin.
5. The collection of the famous "Three Hundred Tang Dynasty Poems" sound better when recited in Fujian or Teochew if compared to Mandarin.
6. Today, the Fujian Nam Yim orchestral performance still has its roots in ancient Tang dynasty music. The formation of today Nam Yim ensemble is typically seen in ancient Tang dynasty paintings of musicians.
Although not genetically-related, Fujian, Koreans and Japanese share many similar words (which are different from Mandarin).
That's because Fujian was the official language of the powerful Tang Dynasty whose influence and language spread to Japan and Korea (just like Latin – where many words were borrowed by the English, French, Italian, etc). Here are just a few words in Fujian, Japanese & Korean for your comparison:
Fujian (Minnan) / Korean / Japanese
Sin Boon (news) / Sin Mun / Shinbun - newspaper
Cheng Hu (government) / Chong Bu Pang (room) / Pang Chhia (car/vehicle) / Ch'a Mui/M'ng (door) / Mun P'hio (ticket) / P'yo Eng Wan (eternal) / Yong Won Chaek (book) / Ch'ae Ki (flag) / Ki / Ki
Kang river) / Gang/kang Poh Hiam (insurance) / Poh Ham Sio Sim (caution) / Cho sim Mo Kui (demon) / Ma gui Cham (attend/join/mix) / Ch'am sok Kantan (simple) / Gan Dan Sin Sei Kai (new world) / Shin Sae Gae Kok Ka (nation) / Kuk Kka Hya (elder brother) / Hyaeng Choon Pi (prepare) / Jun Bi Si Kan (time) / Si Kan Kam tong (emotion, feeling) / Kam Jong / Kanjoo
Kamsia (gratitude, thanks) / Kam Sa / Kansha
Keat Hoon (marriage) / Kyol Hon / Kekkon
Oon Tong (exercise) / Un Dong / Undoo
Tua Ok (university) / Tae Hak / Daigaku
Aun Chuan (safety) / An Jon / An Zen
Mua Chiok(satisfaction) / Man Jok / Manzoku
Ai Lang (lover) / Ae In / Aijin
Seng Kong (success) / Song Kong / Seikoo
Chhiu Sat (suicide) / Cha sal / Jisatsu
Pu Do (grapes) / P'o d'o / Budoo
Chin Por (progress) / Chin bo / Shinpo"
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tee
Member
Posts: 1
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Post by tee on Aug 25, 2016 20:38:43 GMT -5
Tee clan originating from Amoy China migrated to Philippines in the early 50 Tee Hong Pio 鄭鴻標
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