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Post by Ah Gin on Mar 4, 2009 16:42:57 GMT -5
Hi, This is a general note, probably understood by the Sifu of Heritage Research, but may be new to young players. I am hoping the Old Hands will jump in and add to what I have started. For those of us fortunate enough to have access to "original" records, with Chinese names written, this is a great start in your journey of tracking down your relatives. And if you have a Zupu or Jiapu from your Ancestral Village you are doubly blessed. Thing is, for the old folks before New China  they may have a number of names. e.g. Baby Name (Milk Name), Nick Name, School Name (Book Name), Generation Name. Take my case. When I finally got hold of our Zupu, I was very pleased to have found my Grandfather and Great grandfather -- only because their names were on the Tablet at home, and I worshipped them at least twice a day. But I could not find my father, nor my uncle. Then I remembered: their names in the Zupu were listed using their Generation Names. I have my generation name, and my grandchildren also have their generation names. It is my hope that at the next round of Zupu update our names will be inserted -- both business names and Generation Names. As to searching for or converting or backward engineering of transliterated names extracted from old Colonial Documents, that is another story, worth another posting. e.g. we found a Chinese Pioneer in Victoria, Australia, and he went by a name of "Ah Tan". So what the Chinese character for "Tan?". To get the correct answer we really need to see source documents. And the clue is, he was from Siyi, so he spoke Hoisanwa. Happy hunting. Ah Gin |
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Post by philiptancl on Mar 5, 2009 1:37:57 GMT -5
Hi Ahgin, I am no Old Hand in genealogy search as I still have a lot more to learn and discover. As such I hope you can still permit me to put in my two bits worth of comments for what they are worth. In going through some of the Chen/Chan/Tan/Chin (陈/陳) zupus now in my collection, the other name(s) may sometimes be quoted alongside as well. The generation name would be quoted together the generation number. In our quest for our own lineage, knowing the sequence of our generation names would be of help as well especially for those who could not obtain their jiapu or zupu. Even when you have your jiapu, the number of generations it could provide might probably by limited. If a particular lineage branch does not have a zupu to help you track further back, knowing the sequence of generation names may help. If you should find another zupu having the same sequence of generation names from another lineage branch either from the same ancestral village or another village within the same county or another village in another county or even another village of another province, you can be quite certain that your lineage branch could had branched off not too many generations back. In this connection I wish to refer to the thread “Chen/Tan/Chan/Chin (陈/陳) Clan†under Clan Progenitor References section My primary source shall be my Chen Clan genealogical record or zupu (æ—è°±) entitled: 永春å°å²µå—å±±, 陈æ°ä¼é“å…¬, 长房é›ç¦å®—å¿— published in 2003. ……. The progenitor of Xiao Hu Chen (å°å²µé™ˆ) is Chen Hong Yuan (陈弘元) and is referred to as Xiao Wei (æ ¡æ…°) in the family tree. Xiao Hu (å°å²µ) is in the Yongchun County (永春县) within the Fujian Province (ç¦å»ºçœ). Descending from Chen Hong Yuan, I can count 90 progenitors in the following counties/provinces: 1. Yongchun (永春): 22, 2. Nan'an (å—安): 7, 3. Anxi (安溪): 13, 4. Dehua (德化): 1, 5. Jinmen (金门): 1, 6. Fuding (ç¦é¼Ž): 18, 7. Zhejiang (浙江): 27, and 8. Taiwan (å°æ¹¾): 1. Taking the progenitor of Xiao Hu Chen (å°å²µé™ˆ), Chen Hong Yuan (陈弘元) as Generation 1, the Xiao Hu Chen surnames, alive as of 2003, ranges from Generation 28 to Generation 42. Philip Tan My zupu (永春å°å²µå—å±±, 陈æ°ä¼é“å…¬, 长房é›ç¦å®—å¿—) is only one of the 90 branches. Why some of these branches could trace their ancestral lines were because they have the same sequence of the generation names. Having the same sequence of generation names provide these branches the clue that they are descended from Chen Hong Yuan (陈弘元) in spite of the fact that their respective progenitors had moved to other villages/counties/provinces. Using zupus from related branches these branches could then trace they ancestry all the way back to Huang Di (黄å¸). As to Chinese Pioneer in Victoria, Australia, who went by the name of "Ah Tan", this is my take. When I was doing my study for engineering degree, I did my 5 months of 3rd year compulsory industrial training in 1967 at Connaught Bridge Power Station in Klang (Klang was where Ahgin was staying before he immigrated to Australia). I was renting a room in Klang to stay during that period and the family there called me by "Ah Tan" because my surname is “Tanâ€. In my Southern Fujian dialect my surname Chen ((陈/陳) is pronounced as Tan. This is not to be confused with Henry Tom's surname Tan (è°/èš). Since the "Ah Tan" who Ahgin refers to was from Siyi (same as Henry) the "Tan" could be for (è°/èš). Ahgin is truly a filial son to venerate his ancestors twice a day. From my knowledge of such practice, this would be once in the morning and once in the evening. In this connection I wish to elaborate on some differences in practice between people from Guangdong and Fujian (at least as practiced by descendants from my ancestral village). On veneration to ancestors, we use two joss sticks not three as I sometime observed being practiced by people here from Guangdong. For deities or Gods, we use three joss sticks (or one if for ordinary day except for 1st day, 15th day, 9th day, 19th day or 29th day of the lunar month). We never use duck as offering to our ancestors. Chicken would be the choice besides other dishes. For offering chicken to ancestors, the chicken would be chopped into four pieces before reassembling back on a plate. In my younger days, I used to observe that the chicken heart was placed between the beak, the liver and gizzard coiled together using the intestines and placed on the back of the chicken together with the boiled coagulated blood. |
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Post by Ah Gin on Mar 5, 2009 3:04:26 GMT -5
Philip,
Gee, that was another information-packed posting. I enjoy reading it, as it brings back fond memories of the little village of Klang when I have the good fortune of growing up. I say good fortune as my classmates and friends in a largely Hokien dominated town were Cantonese (from different parts of Say Yup -- not that we appreciated the meaning of Say Yup / Siyi), Hainan, Hakka, Tiochiew and much more. Each of the groups of Chinese seem to have a ever slightly different customs. The number of joss sticks story brings back some memories as well. As kids, we never question the reason why the number of joss sticks, or the time when joss sticks got to be lit.
By posting what you have posted I hope it will stimulate further conversations from others, as indeed the Cantonese, the Hokkien, the Haka etc. customs are different.
Yes, I can recall my mother told us, never to use ducks as offering. Interesting thing is, I married someone from Hokkien, and when we go to the cemetery to pay respect to her parents, we bring a roast duck, as that was their favorite. I guess I am no longer "pure" in following customs. I guess what's in the heart that counts.
Regards, Ah Gin from the Village of Klang
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Post by Henry on Mar 5, 2009 10:20:54 GMT -5
Dear Philip & Ahgin,
Thank you for the very interesting comments.
In my family we were taught to bow 3 times with the incense sticks, then light them and bow 3 more times. My mother keeps an ancestral alter in her house with a photo of dad and her parents - she burns incense quite often for them and always has oranges and Scotch whiskey for dad. During grave sweepings in the Spring and the Fall, we were taught to bring a piece of roast pork, a fish, and a whole chicken - with the head and feet, all in one. In Taishan, my village relatives do not bring a chicken, they bring a goose - and all the typical food you would see at the cemetery gathering.
On the generational sequences.
Some say that the use of a clan generational poem was a rather recent innovation to standardized the generational character used per generation, however, looking at my own Tan clan genealogy book, I can see where my generational poem goes back to circa 1700 AD, but, there were other Tan clan generational sequences used prior to that going back to circa 900 AD.
I believe that clan generational poems, depending on the locality of the clan progenitor, varied and is the reason why there are several generational poems for my clan at the provincial, county, and even among towns in the same county.
Lately, I have been looking at the 4 basic styles of Chinese genealogy books and have yet to find a decent explanation about how each one used. This would be rather important information for Chinese genealogy researchers - especially when they cascade forward or track backwards on these genealogy lineages.
It seems that our focus has been quite basic in determining "pedigree" lines of descent and we have not paid too much attention or discussed the horizontal - across a generational level and how fully populated this needs to be when defining the line of descent.
I suspect that this horizontal lineage is serendipitous - much like the frequency and who organizes the updates to clan genealogy books. It seems that there was not much in a systematic update of clan genealogy books between the turbulent times from formation of the Republic in China until recently in the 1990s. Mostly, family members took up collection of money from family members, hired a genealogist and he/she would update a particular branch of the lineage. Hence, this affected the width and depth of that particular lineage segment for that branch of the family.
The Taishan Tan clan association is working on a major Tan clan genealogy book update and it should becoming out this Summer, it will include the names of my grandfather down to my grandsons and the names of all my children, including 2 daughters - that define the lineage of 32 generations back to the Tan clan progenitor for Guangdong province.
Henry
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Post by Ah Gin on Mar 6, 2009 2:28:43 GMT -5
Henry,
Regarding Generation Poem: Our Clan is a small clan, compared to the Lee, Tan, Wong and etc. Not sure we have got our act together, in so far as a unifying poem. We don't have one single poem for the entire Canton Clan. Rather, so far that I can see from my collection of Guangdong Gin Zupu ( 廣東甄氏族譜 ) we have 7 Generation Poems. Each of the 7 major branch has its own, and the earliest is for Generation 12, extending to Generation 41.
Just a by the way. Recently our Clan in Guangzhou donated a set of our Zupu to the Guangzhou Library, I think for good and obvious reasons. Interesting is, until few years ago, the Mormon Library at Utah did not have a set of our Zupu. That is to be expected, as our clan is but a tiny clan.
Regards, Ah Gin
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Post by Henry on Mar 6, 2009 7:27:38 GMT -5
Ahgin, Like your clan, there is no single overall Tan generational poem for all of Guangdong province. My latest count is 24 Tan generational poems that I have collected just for the Taishan and Kaiping region ( there are 3 more major Tan regions of settlement in Guangdong province ). Generational poems will vary according to the major Tan branches and locations. For those that would like to see what we are talking about, please go to: mysite.verizon.net/vzepzaui/genealogy01.htmlthe next page is in much more detail: mysite.verizon.net/vzepzaui/genealogy02.htmlYes, good idea. I suggest donating a set to the Genealogy Section, Shanghai Library - and because they have a joint venture for digitizing zupus with Ancestry.com - they will probably be included into the online collection. I am very annoyed that access to the materials for the Mormon Library, and Ancestry.com ( no English version of the website ) requires people to pay. The Guangdong Library, as with many governmental libraries in China, has this policy where they will not allow the entire zupu to be copied. I guess they do not want an unofficial copy out there that can be copied and sold. Henry |
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Post by jmchan888 on Sept 5, 2009 0:55:14 GMT -5
Hi Fellow Genealogists,
With regard to the comment by Henry Tom that "Mormon Library" requires people to pay is totally untrue. The proper name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Genealogical Library which is headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA. Various cities throughout the world may have what is called the LDS Family History Center that is open to all genealogists regardless they are member of the church or not to do research and to access records stored in SLC. There are also trained Family History consultants to assist when needed. All these are totally free of charge. The only small fee is when a person wants to print certain documents or information or request special shipped microfische (Most likely not being used because of the internet) from SLC genealogical department. This is to off set the cost of printing materials and shipping charges. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has the largest data base of genealogical information in the world. Most Chinese records are from Taiwan and Hong Kong because the Church is not in mainland China. So, go check out the nearest Family History center in your city and let them know about the Forum. If you need more information on this, please email me personally.
Regards,
John
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Post by Henry on Sept 5, 2009 9:43:48 GMT -5
Dear Colleagues,
Only the online catalog is free - but, if you want to see the actual documents and zupus - you must pay first and then the microfilm will be ordered for you.
I have visited the Family History center in Frederick, MD and you must pay $5 USD for each microfilm roll requested, this fee does not buy the microfilm - it is a rental fee, also they charge 20 cents per copy and you are only allowed to copy up to one third of the document.
This is why I will not donate a copy of my book to the Mormon Church.
Henry
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Post by chansomvia on Sept 5, 2009 18:37:43 GMT -5
Dear Colleagues,
Thanks Henry for your clarification of the charges imposed by the Family History Center, although the amount may be small it can spring an unpleasant surprise to have to pay to one of the most affluent Church when you reach there.
Taking advantage of a captive audience is practiced everywhere; this had in the past made it uncomfortable to visit the villages where a handout was expected from the rich prodical "Gaam Saan Haak". Thanks goodness this is getting rare.
I agree with your last sentence, you have contributed generously of your time to help the overseas Chinese and we hope you will get your just reward. I will be going to Xian and Guangzhou with my wife this fall, I plan to spend a longer time in our Toisaan villages next year with her and a cousin from London.
Joe
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Post by jmchan888 on Sept 7, 2009 14:26:51 GMT -5
Dear fellow genealogists,
When I commented about Henry's statement about a fee for using the "Mormon library", I meant that as a general usage and not specific ordering through the Family History center. I sincerely apologize to Henry for my statement and likewise to any forum members whom I offended. As he mentioned in his reply, there is a fee charged for specific request from the genealogical library in SLC to offset shipping cost. The service fee can vary from region to region depending on the rate to be shipped from the genealogical library in SLC.
Henry is a walking encyclopedia of genealogical knowledge. I should not have disputed his claim. I hope sincerely he accepts my apology.
John
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Post by Henry on Sept 8, 2009 7:17:35 GMT -5
John,
Apology accepted, however, since you are a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, your experiences may be special, also, as you live in Canada, the policy and fee structure may have been different. I do find it strange that church policy and fee structure can vary so much, but, with over 4,500 of these Family Research Centers throughout the world, it may be entirely possible.
In my own experience of researching Chinese lineages online [http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp], the examination of Chinese genealogy documents can only be done by ordering microfilm reels for examination and copying at a Family Research Center. It was not unusual to order 4 or 5 reels of microfilm at a fee of $5 per reel and 20 cents per paper copy (not allowed to exceed copying more than one third of the document) – spending $40 to $ 50 USD for a single visit at one of this Family Research Center was not uncommon. Also, the reel of microfilm is on loan is for a short period of time and unless you can sustain your research all day for several days – you will most likely have to extend the loan period to keep the microfilm reel at the Family Research Center until you finish examining and copying frames from each reel of microfilm – then, you have to pay another $5 USD again for each reel of microfilm. After you extend the loan of the reel of microfilm for 2 periods – then the reel of microfilm becomes a permanent part of the local collection.
Consequently, I do not consider these fees “nominal” just to cover shipping costs. In this context, the term “nominal fees” can be misleading. At the Family Research Center, it seem like all the other researchers were looking at reels of microfilm too – so my conclusion, based upon my own experience, is that the loan of microfilms to Family Research Centers constitutes quite a revenue stream for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints because in most countries, churches are exempt from paying taxes.
Thank you for the kind words, but, with only 4 years of experience with Chinese genealogy and not having the capability to read and write Chinese, I am hardly any kind of Chinese genealogy expert.
Henry
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Post by geeweilum on Feb 7, 2010 3:19:05 GMT -5
Hi Henry,
Is it possible for you to produce the chinese characters for Zupu and Jaipu. I have a poor grasp of chinese pronunciation. I have a very sparce and very mixed up vocabulary which is a combinaton of Toisanese and Cantonese. I fortunately have a step sister who emigrated to Canada a few years ago and has been able to pass on some of our recent family history. However, with my limited vocabulary and poor prounciation I can't seem to get the meaning of either Zupu and Jaipu across to her. With those two characters in hand I may be able to make great strides in my search.
Thanks
Geeweilum
PS
To all who may and will probably read my message.
Goong Hei Fat Choy
As this the week of the Chinese New Year, I wish you all good Fortune, Good Health for many Years to come.
Geeweilum
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Post by Henry on Feb 7, 2010 8:54:21 GMT -5
Hi Geeweilum,
I am not Chinese literate, however, I have learned some Chinese characters in performing my Chinese genealogy research - per your request:
zupu (clan register) - 族 譜
jiapu (family register) - 家 譜
Wishing you and all the members of this Forum a very safe, healthy, prosperous, and Happy Chinese New Year of the Tiger.
Henry
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Post by twoupman on Feb 8, 2010 15:58:32 GMT -5
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rhew
Member
Posts: 94
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Post by rhew on Feb 21, 2012 17:41:08 GMT -5
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they may have a number of names. e.g. Baby Name (Milk Name), Nick Name, School Name (Book Name), Generation Name. 
