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Post by lesthean on Aug 26, 2010 8:09:52 GMT -5
Hello
I am new to Chinese genealogy.I have been told that there should be a poem which was written by the first ancestor and the names of succeeding generation are listed within the poem.
Is this correct ?What if the generations run out of names -how do we decide on the next series of names ?
I have my jiapu-I am the 21 st generation and I am thinking about the 23rd generation onwards.Unfortunately,I am not literate in Chinese but I wish to setup the next series of names.
Thanks
Les
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Post by Henry on Aug 26, 2010 9:09:33 GMT -5
Hi Les, The generational poem, in which each character represents a generation, and is included in a male's "hao" can be repeated or extended - usually by the surname clan association for that particular area that the generational poem comes from. Generational poems for the same surname clan can vary by location. I believe these generational poems expressed virtuous goals and ideals for clan members to follow and also helped to standardized names in the genealogy lineages. Here are some links: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_namewww.suite101.com/content/how-to-research-chinese-genealogy-a97609Regards, Henry
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Post by Doug 周 on Aug 26, 2010 9:52:47 GMT -5
Les, Congratulations for wanting to carry out the tradition and keeping within your generational poem. My own name and those of my offsprings did not carry the generational name, which I regret. Hopefully I can encourage my kids to continue the tradition with any potential grandchildren. The poem then recycles over again. I remembered running across this post: click=> Topic: Generational PoemsOtherwise I have no expertise. There is a lot of information deep within the confines of this forum. Notice that this post was started almost 1/2 a decade ago. Sometimes the 'nuggets' are hard to find. There is no reason you cannot benefit from the discussion back then. Doug
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Post by Henry on Aug 26, 2010 10:42:12 GMT -5
Gentlemen,
My father gave me my "hao" when I got married and in my family my brother and son also have "haos" based upon the respective Chinese character (bon pie) in our generational poem. My "milk" name was a name of "expectation" for the kind of person that my parents believed that I should be. My "hao" is a name based on my adult character - the way I turned out.
Doug,
When your son marries, you can choose a "hao" for him based on the appropriate "bon pie" and continue this tradition. "Haos" only apply to males.
Henry
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Post by Doug 周 on Aug 26, 2010 11:51:25 GMT -5
Henry,
Help my confusion. I assume the 'Hao' name is the middle name of a 3 name character set.
I thought that name was set by the generational poem.
¿What do you mean by 'bon pie' ?
This ABC needs to be educated more!
Doug
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Post by Henry on Aug 26, 2010 17:38:51 GMT -5
Hi Doug,
The "hao" is the name for the entire 3 character name given when you come of age and/or marry, i.e., the surname character, middle character, and character for the given name. The middle character within the "hao" is from the family poem for a particular generation - this character is called the "bon-pie". The third character for a given name is selected and not assigned by the generational poem. This generational poem is usually a very nice poem about what the clan should do to remain virtuous, etc.
Henry
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Post by tyuti1668 on Aug 26, 2010 18:35:38 GMT -5
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Post by lesthean on Aug 31, 2010 7:31:13 GMT -5
Thank you for all the info.........much appreciated
Les
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Post by Doug 周 on Oct 8, 2010 12:36:28 GMT -5
Les, ¿Can you post an image of your generational poem? I realize, as Ahgin wrote in Topic: Jiapu and Zupu online? response from Ah Gin, that there is no ISO for jiapus. I am trying to find my generational poem and without language skills, I need to do some Rorschach testing and comparison to find it. Doug
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Post by philiptancl on Oct 9, 2010 7:30:29 GMT -5
Hi Doug, There could be two generation poems for some families; one for Hui (讳) and another for Zi (å—). For my wife side, her late father taught his children the family poem, which she could still recites by heart even now. When we went to her ancestral village for the first time in August 2007 when she first knew the existence of her zupu, she discovered that her generation poem she was taught is in fact for Zi (å—). The version for Hui (讳) is different. Please find below the page from her zupu that contains both versions: Philip
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Post by Doug 周 on Oct 9, 2010 9:33:09 GMT -5
Thanks Phillip. You are always helpful. I cannot find a similar format in my jiapu. Your wife's family poem format looks like a modern printing, with circled numbers. ¿Do you also have an image from a generational poem from an older pre WWII jiapu? This is what sdcheung posted, but it came from a grave site: Topic in Cheung Clan re: posting generational poem<=click . Maybe other readers with jiapus can post images of their generational poems. It has been stated that the jiapu cost U$50/page to professionally translate. With a 900 page jiapu, that can be expensive. What I am trying to do is locate certain things I would like to have translated. I believe that having a translation of the generational poem (or at least identifying the poem), and the specific biographies of my closer relatives would be important (IMHO) Doug
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Post by laohuaqiao on Oct 10, 2010 20:38:47 GMT -5
Doug, Try this brute force method to partially identify your family generation poem and then use this partial string of characters to find the poem in your jiapu, which should, usually is, within a few pages before the listing of the genealogy tree. Starting with the most recent generation in your family tree working backwards, find the common character that is in the names of the male members for each generation. That word is the associated character from the poem for that particular generation. Take the Cheung clan as an example, generation 122 腾 Teng is common character in the names for that generation, generation 121 it's 云 yun, generation 120 it's 化 hua, etc. Look for the strings of 2, 3 or more in the reverse order you found them, 云腾or 化云腾 in the jiapu. With a bit of luck you should be able to find the poem just by visually comparing the few characters.
The reason you don't search from the beginning is generation poem don't exist with 1st generation. I don't know the exact circumstances when a clan would start using generation poem, presumably when the number in clan has grown, clan became prosperous or a clan member became someone prominent. In the unlikely situation that the generation poem is very recent and only one generation in your clan has started using it and that character happens to be a very common character in the Chinese language then you are very unlucky indeed.
Hopefully this method helps.
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Post by Doug 周 on Oct 11, 2010 9:38:09 GMT -5
Thanks laohuaqiao, that helped. Like you said, it was close to the beginning of the lineage chart. Here is an image from my preWWII(?) jiapu: Doug
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Post by philiptancl on Oct 11, 2010 10:25:22 GMT -5
Hi Doug,
I checked with two jiapu (in hardcopy), dating pre WWII, that I have but both were not extensive in their coverage. One for surname Chen (陈) dated 1934 from Foshan (彿山) and another for surname Zhu (朱) dated 1920, both from Quangdong Province. I am not able to find anything that resembles a generation poem in both. I also looked at the scanned copy (consisting of six volumes) for my mother-in-law¡'s surname Wang (王) (completed in 1938) together with a colleague who can read Chinese. Unfortunately we were not successful in locating her generation poem therein. Not literate in Chinese, I find it near impossible to search for something written from a scanned zupu. I have a series of 100 scanned volumes (each volume about 800 to 1000 pages) of zupus for various surnames from various places. I believe they are pre WWII. As they are in scanned form, it would be impossible for me locate a generation poem that is contained in any of those scanned volumes. My other scanned zupus and other hard-copy zupus are post WWII (post 1985).
After having followed quite a number of generation poems, the approximate period each started and the history surrounding my ancestors moved to Fujian, I have some conjecture of the period when the generation poems started. I need to do some further research before putting my thoughts down.
Coming back to your case, I would suggest that should you next meet up again with Gene Chin (my 50th cousin thrice removed from New York), you could show him your jiapu and let him a look. He is very well verse in Chinese and he should be able to locate your generation poem in your jiapu, if one is contained therein.
While writing this, I saw your latest posting with an image. What you showed is the start of the lineage chart. I believe what you had marked is some short information regarding 三達 of Generation 1. I suggest you should search for the generation poem before the genealogical chart, the section containing details of each person of each generation or the section of sketches on the locations of some of your ancestors' graves. Philip
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Post by laohuaqiao on Oct 11, 2010 18:42:28 GMT -5
Doug, What you have boxed in is not the generation poem, it's a brief bio of the founder of the clan in Zhongshan. " hui (as mentioned by Philip) name Kang, 8th son of Song Wei, escaped from the tumultuous Song Dynasty, first to Dongguan Aotou, then to Huangtang, finally to Xiangshan (Zhongshan) City Northgate Street, became the founder".
The generation poem should be in the pages before the family/clan tree.
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