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Post by ahwongsing on Jan 8, 2008 22:40:59 GMT -5
Greetings, My great, great, great Grandfather was one "Ah Wong Sing", born around 1837. He migrated to Australia, from Canton Southern China in the year 1857 in the hope of finding gold in here in Victoria. He ended up in Stawell where he married an Irish girl by the name of Ellen Boyne in the year 1872. He signed the Marriage Certificate in both English AND in Cantonese Script... Together they had 11 children and eventually moved to Ballarat (where I grew up). Ah Wong Sing passed away in the year 1891 (He had been a miner, and possibly a Market Gardener, all his life). He was then buried in the Ballarat Chinese Cemetery with a 4 year old son who had passed away 5 years before. Below are the relevant pictures of both the Marriage Certificate and the Headstone in question. I have been told that the headstone reads: "Huang Feng Fa" But, I am confused somewhat, as there are clearly 5 Chinese characters on the Headstone (not 3)... To those who offer to help: What does the headstone say in full? Can I extract anything from these pictures which can help me trace his origins in China? If you could offer any help at all, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you one and all! HEADSTONE OF WONG SING AND HIS 4 YR OLD SON SAMUEL SING: RELEVANT SECTION OF MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE WITH WONG SING'S SIGNATURE IN BOTH ENGLISH AND CHINESE (Can anyone translate the Chinese Witness' name as well?): P.S Can anyone read Wong Sing's Father's name? Is it: "Yan Foon" Does that mean anything in the Chinese language? I notice also that it reads that his Mother is "Unknown"... Would that have been a cultural thing, where because she was not present in Australia - or perhaps that she had passed away - he didn't want to mention her name?
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Post by tyuti1668 on Jan 9, 2008 4:04:46 GMT -5
Chinese charcter database -Cantonese (Traditional Chinese ONLY)The chinese family name is 黃. AH SING is just the mistake make by the white folks. 黃-逢發(Surname-Given Name) 坟墓(grave) "坟" is common hand-written form at that time for "墳" (PRC's simplified Chinese-"坟" is the standard one) NO county info at that tombstone. Difficult to find out the birth place. From Canton is just a wild guess. Canton Exactly: today's Guangzhou Rough/wrong translated: Kwungtung (Guangdong) Province. Which dialect does your family spokes ? Cantonese/ Siyi / Longdu ? Witness: 亞牛 (no surname, just a name)
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Post by helen on Jan 9, 2008 4:29:38 GMT -5
The child's name is Wong Fung Fuk (surname Wong). The Heung name that you quote is the same as the Cantonese Wong - So at least - they came from Canton.
His father is Wong Sing (as written on marriage certificate). They must not have known his mother's maiden name - hence written "unknown"
The witness name is Ah Au (as "Ah Ngau"/ cow)
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Post by Ah Gin on Jan 10, 2008 1:25:53 GMT -5
Ahwongsing,
Your posting is interesting and intriguing. My guess (which is not entirely based on fact, but gut feel) is that he is from the Guangzhou (aka Canton) area, rather than say, from the rural area so much associated with the Siyi region (generically speaking that is). That he was able to sign his name both in English (and lovely script at that) and Chinese (in Traditional Chinese of course), says something about the person. He must have had a reasonable exposure to the English language and that he has taken the trouble and pride to learn to write in English. You probably have already checked most of the sources available at the Victoria Public Record Office in North Melbourne, to pin down as much relevant information about your GGG and his descendents. If not, it will be worth following up with this track. He appears to have arrived at the Colony relatively early in the gold rush days.
Looking at the headstone and the background of the photo, it looks like the headstone is located at the New Ballarat Cemetery, rather than at the Ballarat Old Cemetery. I may be wrong. The interesting thing is, the headstone is of marble, rather than granite, such as those in the background and commonly used by the Chinese at that cemetery. It will be interesting to find out who buried Wong Sing. This point is useful because it tells us something about who actually knew Wong Sing’s ancestral village and exactly when he passed away. If you are able to track down any source document in Chinese, relating to Wong Sing, it will certainly help. For most headstones (or footstones) around the Ballarat area (and indeed most Chinese buried around that time), on the headstones it is usual to have the following information inscribed, viz: Name of the departed, village of origin, date of departure, written in the traditional Chinese style, rather than in Gregorian Dates and the Region (read, mostly Siyi Region). Regrettably, on the attached picture of headstone, there is just the name of the departed and no other information.
Regarding the name of his father: there is an intriguing mention of “Yan”. “Yan” in Cantonese can be a Surname. Yet Wong Sing is a Wong, not a “Yan”. That he did not (or could not) list his mother’s name is probably consistent with the Chinese culture than, in that, in most situations, the mother’s name (or wife’s name) is only listed by her Surname. For example, I know my GG mother’s surname to be a Wong and that’s about all. But I know my male ancestor’s names in full, for 29 generations and beyond (and have books showing the linage) -- that’s just the situation than.
I am not sure how much this helps, but hopefully food for thought. If we are able to source more information about Wong Sing, we will let you know.
Kind regards, Ah Gin of the Chinese Heritage Interest Network
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Post by laohuaqiao on Jan 10, 2008 12:33:50 GMT -5
I have a different interpretation of the marriage certificate. I think it was written by a clerk, possibly the witness Emily Bennett. The 3, Wong Sing, Ellen Boyne and Ah Ngau, could not write in English or sign their names in English. Their English names were written in by the clerk (or Emily Bennett) and each made their mark, Wong Sing and Ah Ngau wrote their names in Chinese while Ellen made a cross mark.. Wong Sing left China when he was 20, had he had any formal education he would've had it by then. The Chinese signature doesn't look like it was written by someone with much Chinese education, lack of defined control over the individual strokes, especially the character "Wong".
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Post by geoff on Jan 10, 2008 14:52:21 GMT -5
Here is my interpretation of the marriage certificate.
The details of the bride & groom have been completed by the marriage clerk. Now to the signatures. The groom's name "Wong Sing" has been written by the clerk. As the groom couldn't sign in english, he signed "+" as "his mark". Why did the bride Ellen Boyne sign her name as "Ellen Leopold"? The male witness' name "Yang Gai" was written by the clerk & the female witness signed her name "Emily Bennett". I can't comment on the chinese characters.
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Post by laohuaqiao on Jan 11, 2008 18:22:10 GMT -5
This is why I think the name "Ellen Leopold" was more likely wriiten by the same person who filled out the rest of the certificate:
Similarities of double "l" in Ellen" and "William", "e" in "Ellen" and "e"'s appear elsewhere, capital "L" in "Leopold" and "Laborer". The second hump in the "n" is lower in "Ellen" as does in "known", and the tail of the last letter "d" in "Leopold" is exagerated as does the tail of final letters in other words such as "same", "Boyne", and many other words. The last letter of the word above "+" is more similar to the "r" in "mark" than the letter "s" elsewhere; the words are more likely to be "her mark"
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Post by geoff on Jan 11, 2008 23:14:46 GMT -5
I've changed my mind about who "+ mark" belong to.
I agree with laohuaqiao that "Ellen Leopold" was probably the marriage clerk. Ellen Leopold signed her name as the "witness" to Ellen Boyne signing "+" as "her mark". Therefore, the bride Ellen Boyne couldn't sign her name.
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Post by geoff on Jan 12, 2008 16:41:09 GMT -5
Hello Ahwongsing,
As you grew up in Ballarat Vic, I seeking your assistance with history of chinese in the area. My paternal GGGfather was born in a village near Canton China & arrived in Melbourne Vic in 1874. He lived at Mount Egerton, south east of Ballarat, from 1874 to 1881 & established his business (type of business unknown) in 1879. In 1881 he was a storekeeper at Teesdale Vic, near Geelong, according to his 1881 Memorial for Naturalization papers. He later moved to Sydney where he established market gardens.
I'm waiting for reply from the historical society at Mount Egerton.
Do you think the Ballarat & District Genealogical Society Inc might have info on chinese in the area? I may have to use their research service as we don't have any relatives or contacts in Vic.
Regards, Geoff Sydney
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Post by ahwongsing on Jan 16, 2008 19:07:57 GMT -5
First of all, thank you very much one and all for your helpful input and advice!
I have certainly taken it onboard, and will be researching further yet...
As to Ellen "Leopold"... I'm sorry folks, I should have mentioned that Ellen had been married once before to a Miner named "Antonio Leopold"; he died a couple of years before she met Wong Sing. This is why her name is given as "Ellen Leopold", yet her father's surname is clearly "Boyne".
Geoff: I believe my Mother knows a lady from PROV in Ballarat who is busy researching Chinese Australians on the Goldfields... I'll see if I can get her contact details, and once I do I'll pass it on. Till then, can you give me this good man's name, and *any other details* you have on him. Then, whilst I am continuing my own research, I can keep a look out for you Granpapa as well!
For starters, I can look him up on the Victorian BDM's (which I have easy access too) if you like...
Regards,
Mark
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Post by geoff on Jan 19, 2008 15:45:38 GMT -5
Hello Mark,
Thanks for your offer to lookup Victorian BDMs. Wish we'd made contact earlier as I've just recently completed searching the Vic BDMs on CD at the local history centre in NSW. I also used the Melbourne General Cemetery listing (MGC) & photos on CD to eventually find maternal GGF's grave. I'd lost "contact" with GGF in late 1890's & not finding any subsequent marriages or deaths of any of his family in Vic or NSW, I suspected they'd moved back to China. On finding 4 letters from China dated 1904 & no mention of GGF's name, I turned my search for his death, back to Vic. I eventually found him buried at MGC but under a variation of his anglicised name. I bought the Vic death certificate that marched the MGC name & it revealed the names of his 2 wives & all his children born in Vic. That death cert matched the names & dates that we knew of GGF's family. Bingo!
My paternal GGGF is the one who I'm searching for further details at Mt Egerton Vic.
Geoff
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Post by geoff on Jan 19, 2008 17:11:52 GMT -5
Hello Mark,
I've just sent you a personal message.
Regards, Geoff
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Post by polly44 on Jan 1, 2019 22:55:11 GMT -5
Hello, Ah Wong Sing was my G, Grandfather, My Grandfather was Charles Henry Boyne Ah Sing who married Robina Georgia Leverett. I would be very interested in any information that you may have regarding this family. I too believe Ellen Boyne was married to Antonio Leopold, they had 2 children, Joseph, and Mary Ann, I have 14 children for Ellen and William Ah Sing. i do know that Margaret who married Charles Thomas Taylor is buried in Geelong in 1968. and also, Uncle John in 1942. My Grandfather Charles and Grandmother Robina are buried in Geelong West along with their infant son Leslie Sing. This is just to inroduce myself as family in the hope that we may be able to help each olther better. Cheers all Irene
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Post by polly44 on Jan 1, 2019 22:57:54 GMT -5
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Post by polly44 on Jul 7, 2020 4:45:00 GMT -5
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