Charles ah Sing Townsville Queensland Australia 車利 生

[fottley]

Looking for my Great grandmother's first husband's family. Margaret Jane Punnett married Charles Ah Sing in Townsville Australia in 1890. On the marriage certificate his birthplace is given as Canton, his father's name Loock Sing and his mother's name Yong. He signed his name as 車利 生. I popped the characters into a Cantonese translation site and it gives me ce1 lei6 saang1

He returned to China with 2 of his Australian born kids Emily Maud Sing and William Francis Sing. William Sing returned to Australia in 1917 having forgotten how to speak English, and reported that Charles and Emily had died from smallpox, and he had no family left in China. We have no other information. No idea where to even start looking. 

[gckimm]

Hi fottley:

Welcome to the Forum!

When I first saw the characters for Charles's name, I thought that they might be just a romanization of "Charles Sing," but I discovered that there is actually a Chinese surname Che 車. Furthermore, according to my internet research, Che clan members moved to Guangdong Province around the end of the Song dynasty and beginning of the Yuan dynasty (around the 1270s). There seems to be a large concentration of Che clan members in Lu Village, Maoming City 茂名市祿村.

However, while 車利生 is a perfectly fine Chinese name, I cannot be certain that 車利生 was actually Charles's Chinese name and not just a romanization. I am curious how the Chinese characters were spaced on the certificate. From your typing, it looks like there might have been an extra space between the second and third characters but I am not sure if you intended that or if that is just accidental. If on the certificate there is a noticeable space between the second and third characters, that might be a clue that the characters are being used just for the sound: "Cheh-lei Saang" = "Charlie Sing" (Cantonese pronunciation).

Any idea where Charles is buried? If there are Chinese characters on his headstone, they will give us the answers we need.

Good luck.

Greg

[cdnheadtaxdata]

I am inclined to agree with Greg's initial impression that "車利 生" is the romanization of "Charlie Sing".
If I understand the family history provided by Fottley:
Loock Sing → Charles Ah Sing → William Francis Sing, who returned to Australia in 1917.
If Fottley can search for the birth and (death record?) of William Francis Sing in Australia, the Chinese name of William Sing might appear among Australian records of certificates. Perhaps the Head Stone of William Sing will show his Chinese name.

The Chinese name of Loock Sing would likely suggest that his last name is 駱 and his given name is 生.
A good number of 駱 (Lok,Lock) listed in the Canadian Head Tax Record came from:
Ko Jang Village / Kau Tsang Village, what is now part of Canton City
高增:駱姓;高增村,今廣州白雲區;


Chinese Poll Tax records (?) kept by Australia and New Zealand might also provide valuable leads on Loock Sing and his family.

Hope the above info helps.

[fottley]

The spacing was my error, sorry. I have attached his signature from the marriage certificate. This is the only record we have of his name in characters. We do not know where he was buried, one presumes in his home village. 

[fottley]

Uncle Willie has no headstone, we are in the process of getting one for him. I have his birth and death certificates, but since both are from Australia, there's no information on where in China he was during his time there, which means we also have no idea where Charles is buried. 

I doubt if Charles parents ever came to Australia, but must admit I have not searched the indexes for them. Guess I should get onto that. 

Someone posted a photo of a Charles Ah Sing on Wikitree on his profile back in 2019. I have not been able to find the source even though it states it came from the National Library of Australia. It might be our Charles and it might not, as there were several using that name in Australia at that time. Without finding the source document there's no way to be sure. 

www.wikitree.com/wiki/Sing-88

[gckimm]

Hi fottley:

Thanks for posting that image.

I have to say that I am now leaning in the direction of believing that his Chinese name was really 車利生. In many years of studying the history of overseas Chinese, I have never come across any Chinese signature utilizing Chinese characters matching just the romanization of someone's name rather than just the correct signature. There would be no logical reason for Charles to do that, especially since he knew the Australians didn't read Chinese. To give you a somewhat similar example from my own family tree, I had a granduncle whose Chinese name was Choo Way Ping 徐惠平 (surname Choo) but he used the American name of Charles Ping. Many in the Chinese community referred to him by the nickname of "Cha-lei-ping"--but he would never sign his name in Chinese in any way other than using the correct Chinese characters.

Why would Charles Sing sign his name as "Che Lei Saang" if he knew that that was not really his name?

Greg

[fottley]

Thanks Greg & cdnheadtaxdata, you have both been very helpful. I will keep searching the archives here. There is a record of Uncle Willie when he returned. I'll have to order it and see if it has anything useful on it.

[douglaslam]

Hi fottley,

I know a professional historian whose specialty is Chinese settlement in far north Queensland from mid-19th.century to the 1950s, I think. Queensland is a very large state in Australia, about the size of Alaska. She, the historian, has done case study on many Chinese families. She just might have more information for you.

If you want to follow through please PM me.