Trying to find a 田 Tian from Zhongshan

[keebee2199]

Hi all,

I have been researching a man named Chan Poi-Chin who immigrated to Hawaii in 1896 as a labourer. His former place of residence was written down as "Hong San", which I think is modern day Zhongshan in Guangdong Province.

He came over on the SS Gaelic in June 1896.

He is listed as being born in either China or Canton in every record I have of him.

On two of his children's birth records, he signs his name as 田郑, or Tian Zheng, and writes his name as Ah Chin.

His marriage record mentions his parents as Ah Tay and Ah Song.

Is it possible with the information I have to track down his zupu? I searched on MyChinaRoots and found 18 total jiapus for the Tian surname.

Thanks,
Kian

[keebee2199]

Just wanted to reply to this post with some new information.

His name was not written as 田郑, but as 田珍

Here is a family tree with most of his information on it. www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/L4WR-NMX

And this is the labour contract that gives his residence as "Hong San" www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:D671-W3PZ

This is his gravestone www.findagrave.com/memorial/225858206/chan-chin

[gckimm]

Hi:

I think you are correct in assuming that this person came from what is now known as Zhongshan 中山. Its old Cantonese name was Heungshan 香山 ("Fragrant Mountain"), which could have been transcribed as "Hong San." Most of the early Chinese immigrants in Hawaii were Heungshan/Chungshan/Zhongshan people.

However, I am confused by the names you have mentioned. Are you sure that the correct surname is Tian/Tin 田? If it is, then Chan must be a false surname. But as far as I can tell, Hawaii was not at this time subject to the American exclusionary laws that led many Chinese to use the "paper son" system. So I don't know why this gentleman would use Chan instead of Tin. Could you post a scan of the signature on a document?

"Ah Chin"--which appears to be the surname his descendants used--could be derived from the personal name 珍, which is pronounced "jun" in Cantonese.

Regarding genealogies, you would need to find a genealogy not only for the correct surname but also related to the correct place of origin. It looks like we don't have enough information for that yet.

Greg

[keebee2199]

Hi Greg,

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I think I need to dig a little deeper. I wonder if it's possible to find his home village, though I remember seeing that there were over 300 villages in Zhongshan.

As for the surname, I can't find any other alternative. Here are his children's birth records:

postimg.cc/w7Jz75QL
postimg.cc/m1yS55G7

I think you're right that the personal name is 珍. But is it not possible that the name 田 Tian was anglicised into Chan? Just a thought.

Do you know how the name Poi relates to this? In some records, he is referred to as Chan Chin but in others as Chan Poi-Chin. Could it be a generational name or something?


Here's an example from the 1920 census. postimg.cc/zyxqrzkc

Kian

[gckimm]

Hi Kian:

After viewing the images you uploaded, my conclusion is that the signature is actually "亞珍·" There is no 田, although I can see the resemblance to that character. The first character can also be written as follows:



It looks like Ah Chin had his own way of writing that character, which is slightly different than what is above, but I think stylistic differences in handwriting are common in Chinese, just as they are in English.

What is most important is that the character is pronounced "Ah" in Cantonese and the word is commonly used when addressing people in a familiar way. So the signature really says "Ah Chin" and is a reference to his given name.

Particularly in Hawaii, there are families of Chinese origin who use surnames with the word "Ah" in them that are derived from the given names of some ancestor. For example, the first Chinese millionaire in Hawaii was supposedly Chun Afong 陳亞芳, whose descendants use the surname Afong even though their real surname is Chun: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chun_Afong

Similarly, I would say that the person you are researching has the surname Chan 陳 and the personal name Chin 珍 or Poi Chin. We do not know yet the character for Poi.

Greg

[keebee2199]

Hi Greg,



Thank you so much for all the help, this is perfect.



Are you confident that we're looking at the surname 陳? I saw online that it was the most common surname in Guangdong, so it wouldn't surprise me, but I just want to make sure we're looking at the right clan.



Now that I have this surname, though, how do I proceed? Is there a way forward here into China, or is there more to be done in Hawaii first? Doing a quick search for zupus on MyChinaRoots, there are 125 results for the surname 陳, which does not exactly make me confident. There were 3 results on MCR for a Chan family in Zhongshang City, and 2 on FamilySearch for a Chan family in Heungsan County.



I did see this online family tree for a Chan family from Zhongshan, but still unable to tell if it's the right one. www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/GV92-CZV



We know he was from Heungsan County, he was born around 1875, and his name was 陳珍. This marriage record even gives his parents as Ah Tay and Ah Song. postimg.cc/GBNZK9HD I tried looking online for these names, but I could only find Tay and Song as surnames.



Going back to Poi, I wondered if it was something to do with the surname? MyChinaRoots says that the character 陳 can be read as both Chen and Poy. www.mychinaroots.com/surnames/detail?word=Poy



Overall, I think the best we can do is hope that something or someone can give more information. I am currently reaching out to living descendants of Ah Chin to see if anyone knows anything. Hopefully this turns up something big.



Kian

[gckimm]

Hi Kian:

No offense to MCR, but some of the information on their website is not accurate, or at least not articulated properly. I think what they mean is that in Hawaii there are some people of Chinese descent who use the surname Poy but are actually members of the Chan/Chun/Chin clan. I think it is safe to say that there is nowhere in China where the surname 陳 can be pronounced "Poy."

My guess is that the full name is Chan Poi Chin. It would be helpful, of course, to find something from the family with those Chinese characters on it, or even with just the surname Chan.

The names of the parents are probably just given names, and the transcription of the names is not much help, as one could only guess at what the correct characters are.

Zhongshan covers a big area and it is impossible to find a genealogy for someone unless you know just where the person came from. Genealogies are tied to lineages and to geographical locations. You will need to find out more precisely the gentleman's place of birth to have any hope of finding a genealogy.

Did this person have any particular prominence in the Chinese community? Zhongshan/Chungshan people in Hawaii continue to be proud of their heritage and are organized even today in various associations. For example, if you look at this webpage, you will see 2024 events of the Gook Doo Society, the Chung Shan Association, the Kung Sheong Doo Society, and the Lung Doo Society: www.ucsofhawaii.com/calendar. All of these groups are for people with Zhongshan/Chungshan ancestry. If you can find out this person came from an area that still has an association, and if this person or his family had some prominence, then perhaps the proper association has some information about him. Ask his descendants if they know if he belonged to any Chinese groups in the islands.

Greg