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Post by philiptancl on Jun 15, 2008 10:19:45 GMT -5
Tan Ancestry from Ancestral Village Xiaohu (Сá²), Fujian
I had posted the following before at the end of May 2008 but because of glitch with the ProBoard then, my posting as well as my registration was erased. Upon the urging of Al Chinn I am now posting it again.
My grandfather came from a place called Xiaohu (Сá²)(Seoh Koh in my own Minnan dialect) in the County of Yongchun(ÓÀ´º) within the Province of Fujian (¸£½¨). My surname is Tan (ê) as pronounced in my Minnan dialect or Chan/Chin/Chinn/Chen/Chun/Ting/Zen in other dialects. I have my generational poem somewhere. If anyone is really interested in my generational poem, I will search for it.
My grandfather came to Malaysia quite some years ago. As I am about among the last surviving member of my generation descended from my grandfather that is interested about our ancestry, I had our family tree recorded from my grandfather downwards; more for the benefit of those generations that came after me.
Last year I visited my ancestral village and my ancestral house in China for the first time in my life. I am 63 now. I have a second cousin living there with one of his three sons. My cousin gave me the Tan (ê) clan genealogy record (Zupu {×å×V}) for Xiao Hu (Сá²). This edition was updated in 2003 and my cousin had included my name in it (but not of my children). My generational name is Cheng (³Ð), my son is Ti (Ìå), my father is Xiang (Ïà), my grandfather is Reng (µi) and my great grandfather is Yun (ÔÆ): all in Pinyin. With the Zupu, I can now trace my ancestry to the first ê (Chen Hugong {êºú¹«}). It would appear that he would be my 102nd great grandfather. In the said Zupu it also recorded Chen Wan (êÍê) on one branch of the family tree (I did not decend from that branch but his cousin's branch): the one referred to by Al Chin in the House of Chinn.
There are many TAN (ê) from Xiao Hu (or Seoh Koh ) (Сá²) in Malaysia. For any Tan who can trace his ancestry from the same ancestral village as I did, they may contact me if they wish to ascertain his ancestry from the Zupu in my possession. It would be easier if you already have some of your immediate ancestors¡¯ names and their generational name (in Chinese characters); otherwise it could quite laborious.
As I am handicapped by not able to read in Chinese, I have yet to comprehend what are contained in my Zupu. However with the Zupu, I was able to build up my family tree right up to the first ê (Chen Hugong {êºú¹«}). From there and from Al Chin¡¯s description in the House of Chinn, I could connect to Chen Shi (êŒ), an ancestor in Al Chinn¡¯s family lineage. From my Zupu, Al Chinn common ancestor with mine could be Chen Wan¡¯s grandfather, Chen Huangong, 껸¹«. Chen Wan could be the cousin of my ancestor Chen Mugong (êĹ«).
The Zupu also contain a map showing the migration of Tan from Xiao Hu (Сá²). They migrated to Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, Canada and US.
My grandfather¡¯s brother êºà×´ (my great uncle) migrated to Indonesia. My relatives had lost touch with his descendants there. I am slowly trying to find clues to reconnect with them.
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Post by Henry on Jun 15, 2008 12:34:11 GMT -5
Hi Philip, It looks like you have already been able to visit your ancestral village and even acquire a copy of your family genealogy book - now you can add the names of your children. Al Chinn's website: [ houseofchinn.com/ ] on the Tan/Chan/Chinn clan has enabled you to fine the connections between various clan lineages and will probably be able to provide others with very useful information. Thanks for sharing your experience. Henry |
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Post by philiptancl on Jun 15, 2008 20:04:09 GMT -5
What I have is the Tan Clan genealogy book from my ancestral village. I undestand it is undated every five generations.
In our same visit last year to Yongchun, we went to my wife's her ancestral village as well; also in Yongchun. Her uncle has the Ee (or Yee) (Óà) Clan Zupu for her ancestral village in Yongchun. A friend of mine, staying a stone throw from my house here in Kuala Lumpur, visited his ancestral village in Anxi (county neigboring Yongchun) last year. He could purchase a set of his Zupu from this clan association of that place. In recent years it would appear that there is a big revival in updating clan Zupu in China, at least in Fujian. Mine was updated in 2003 while my wife's Ee (Óà) was updated in 2002.
From that small sample, I would imagine many Zupu would have recently being updated in China. From what I gather from my Zupu, the cost of updating is funded through donations from members of the Tan clan there. Therefore I would tend to conclude that if should we know our ancestral village in China, there is a high likelihood that each of our clan Zupu would have been recently updated. Tracing our lineage would be a simplier affair.
I have tremendous admiration for you Henry and Al Chinn in your afford and research both of you have taken in tracing your respective lineage. It must be immensely rewarding. For me, just to find my clan Zupu gives me so much joy.
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Post by Henry on Jun 15, 2008 21:06:37 GMT -5
Hi Philip, Yes, according to Al, there has been a lot of genealogy activity on the Internet in China over the past couple of years. My own Tan ( ×T ) family/clan genealogy book had not been updated in over 150 years and was finally revised recently and I am looking forward to seeing the Chinese names of my grandsons, especially, Justin who was born on March 15, 2008 included in the Tan lineages. Several people that I know have also told me that their ancestral villages are publishing their family and clan genealogy books. So there appears to be a Chinese genealogy revival going on in China. This is a wonderful opportunity for overseas Chinese to research their genealogical heritage. As you might know, two years ago, I launched my website Tan Genealogy: mysite.verizon.net/vzepzaui/index.html but, has not been updated in over a year because I was researching, writing, and will soon be completing my book, in English, on the "Tan Genealogy: Heritage and Lineage". Your clan is really fortunate to have a 'real" Chinese genealogy expert like Al Chinn, doing the research on your clan, especially when he is also willing to share his clan information. Yes, our Chinese family/clan genealogical research and sharing it with others is a source of pride and pleasure for both Al and myself. Al & I - did a genealogical expedition for 3 weeks, visiting 18 places in Guangdong province in the Fall of 2006 and it was great fun and educational and we did it Chinese "style" - in terms of the transportation and hotels. Yes, it is also quite a satisfying and rewarding experience - especially when we are able to help others do the same. I will be visiting Kuala Lumpur, August 18-23, 2008 - let me know if you would like to do lunch or dinner: Tomclan@Gmail.com Henry |
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Post by twoupman on Jun 15, 2008 21:59:47 GMT -5
Philip,
Please be careful about finding our common ancestor; it takes some effort to find him. Your assumption of Chen Huangong (陳桓公) is incorrect as Chen Mugong (陳穆公) was also my ancestor.
Per my message to you, can you tell me if Chen Yuanguang (陳元光) was your Fujian ancestor? This will zero in to our common ancestor.
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Post by philiptancl on Jun 16, 2008 1:09:18 GMT -5
Dear Henry,
I will be most delighted to have lunch or dinner with you while you are in Kuala Lumpur from August 19 -23, 2008. I have just send you a personnel email to you separately on the matter.
Philip
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Post by philiptancl on Jun 20, 2008 9:00:22 GMT -5
Hi Henry,
Looking forward to see you in Kuala Lumpur in August 2008. The couple of people that I just talked to already show much interest on your genealogy presentation we had spoke about.
I am also looking forward to visiting the Guandong cemetery and Fujian cemetery in Kuala Lumpur and China Hill (Bukit China) in Malacca. Actually I have yet to visit the Guandong cemetery.
Never imagined I could talk with someone for more than 2 hours in a day over the phone and Skype. Thank you for the materials you emailed me. You are most kind and helpful.
Have a safe and enjoyable journey next week.
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Post by Henry on Jun 20, 2008 10:10:14 GMT -5
Hi Philip, I am looking forward to meeting you on my trip to Kuala Lumpur. Thank you so much for being such a gracious host and taking me to these very interesting places. It has been fun talking to you and sharing information. One of the nice URLs that Philip shared was for writing out Chinese characters with your mouse: www.nciku.com/it works quite well and provides you with the actual Chinese character. Yes, the Skype capability is even better when I will be using it via my laptop computer in my Beijing hotel room to call home. Henry |
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Post by philiptancl on Jun 20, 2008 23:01:14 GMT -5
When I started compiling my family tree from my Xiaohu (Сá²) Chen (ê) genealogy record, I was not able to do it myself. I had to trouble my wife's nephew to do it at the beginning. Just to get through two pages of about fifty chareacters, it took him two evenings: even then there were a few characters that were not present in the software he is using. Anyway he did not write out the pinyin equivalent for. As he is still in high school, I could not keep troubling him that way. So my building up of the tree from the genealogy record came to a stop until I discovered www.nciku.com. From then on I could build my tree right to Chen Hugong (êºú¹«) and beyond. I was trying to reach 33 more generations beyong to Shun Di (Ë´µÛ). However the free webside that I am using for building up the family tree encountered a problem when I reached 12 generations beyond Chen Hugong (êºú¹«). The displayed freezed up. I had communicated with the webside provider and they are now looking into the gitch. For those wanting to use that free website, let me have your email and I shall input you as my friend. An invitaton will then be sent to you and from then on you can start your own family. When you are invited as a friend we could also post messages to each other but we will not be able to see each other family tree. However you can also operate your webside alone. Coming back to the Chinese character writing website, some members within my family tree and those within our forest of family trees were quite amazed that an illiterate person like me in Chinese could write out all those Chinese characters myself! In fact I could learn my Mandarine from that website if I have the determination. |
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Post by philiptancl on Jun 23, 2008 21:09:44 GMT -5
I refer to Al Chinn response dated June 15, 2008
In Al Chinn¡¯s website House of Chinn it showed the family lineage from Tian Wan (ÌïÍê) {Chen Wan (êÍê)} to Tian Qi Wang Jian (ÌïýRÍõ½¨). It is mentioned therein that after the annexation of Qi Guo by Qin, Tian Qi Wang Jian's third son named Tian Zhen (ÌïÝF) fled to a place called Yingchuan in Henan Province. Once there he changed his surname back to Chen. Thus, Chen Zhen (êÝF) rejuvenated the Chen clan lineage.
The website further quoted the lineage of Chen Zhen branch from Chen Zhen (êÝF) to Chen Shi (êŒ). The website further mentioned that the 15th generator ancestor, Chen Shi (êŒ) was a famous personage in the Chen clan during the Eastern Han Dynasty. It said "he was an ancestor in my family". Based on the above descriptions I concluded the following lineage:
Chen Xuangong Chu Yue,êÐû¹«èÆÔ», 44, 11 (my ancestor)¡úChen Ligong Yue, êÀ÷¹«Ô¾, 44, 11(his brother)¡úChen (Tian) Zi Gong Wan, ê×Ó¹«Íê, 45, 12 (his son)¡úTian Yi (ÌïÒÄ) (his son)¡úTian Zhuang (ÌïÇf) (his son)¡úTian Wenzi (ÌïÎÄ×Ó) (his son)¡úTian Huanzi (Ìﻸ×Ó) (his son)¡úTian Wuzi (ÌïÎä×Ó) (his son)¡úTian Lizi (ÌïÀå×Ó) (his son)¡úTian Guan (Ìï¹à) (his son)¡úTian Xiangzi (ÌïÏå×Ó) (his son)¡úTian Zhuangzi (ÌïÇf×Ó) (his son)¡úTian Daozi (Ìﵿ×Ó) (his son)¡úTian Qihou (ýRºî) (his son)¡úTian Wei Wang (ÌïÍþÍõ) (his son)¡úTian Xuan Wang (ÌïÐûÍõ) (his son)¡úTian Min Wang (ÌïéhÍõ) (his son)¡úTian Xiang Wang (ÌïÏåÍõ) (his son)¡úTian Mo Wang (ÌïÄ©Íõ) (his son)¡ú Tian Qi Wang Jian (ÌïýRÍõ½¨) (his son)¡úTian (Chen) Zhen (ÌïÝF) (his son)¡úChen Yu (êðN) (his son)¡úChen Gui (ê܉) (his son)¡úChen Shen (êŒ) (his son)¡úChen An (êèñ) (his son)¡úChen Jie (ê½Ó) (his son)¡úChen Pu (êÆÕ) (his son)¡úChen Tong (êͨ) (his son)¡úChen Li (êÀè) (his son)¡úChen Min (êÃñ) (his son)¡úChen Heng (êºã) (his son)¡úChen Yuan (êÔ¸) (his son)¡úChen Qing (êÇå) (his son)¡úChen Yuan (êÔ´) (his son)¡úChen Shi (êŒ)(his son).
If Chen Shi (êŒ) mentioned above was your ancestor, Tian Wan (ÌïÍê) {Chen Wan (êÍê)} would also be your ancestor. As my ancestor Chen Xuangong's (êÐû¹«) grandfather and Chen Wan's (êÍê) grandfather was Chen Huangong (껸¹«), then he would therefore be our common ancestor. That was the basis of my original conclusion.
We have established that Chen Yuanguang (êÔª¹â) was not my Fujian ancestor in our emails correspondences. I will post the subject separately for the benefit of Siyi Forum.
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