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Post by jmchan888 on Jul 5, 2009 22:35:13 GMT -5
Henry,
Thanks so much for taking time to reply to my inquiries. Appreciate the information. I thank you for directing me to Ed Lee's web site which was very well done. I will keep it as a future reference. I don't want to bite off too much and spreading myself too thin with my effort. I will concentrate on the Chan lineage for now.
I thank you for offering your nephew's help in locating a family jiapu or a clan zupu in my village. Once I have the Chinese characters down, I am sure I will request for your assistance.
Thanks for the info on Chinese characters insertion. I am not very computer literate but will follow your direction and see what come of it.
Regards,
John
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Post by philiptancl on Jul 6, 2009 9:43:08 GMT -5
Hi John, Wow, you have three years of Chinese education! That would probably translate to be more than three years longer than Henry or me as you would have picked more Chinese since then. I wish my grandmother had sent given me for a couple of years of Chinese education. If she had, I may not now have to struggle through in trying to piece together our Chen/Chan/Chin/Tan genealogy. Henry has pretty much provide you with what you need in pursuing your search for your Chan ancestry. Henry and I had met each other in Kuala Lumpur in August 2008. We had a great time together. You can read about it in the following thread: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=names&action=display&thread=796As to your query on generation poem, Henry had already responded to you. However I would like reproduce the translation from part of the preface from a zupu where my 50th cousin four times removed from Boston belongs to. The translation was done by my 50th cousin thrice removed from New York. The preface was written by the zupu compiler Chen Haifeng (陳海峰) dated 26th of June 1993. To read the Chinese characters, please click " View", " Encoding" and " Unicode (UTF-8)" " æˆ‘å˜—ç ”ç©¶é™³æ°ä¸–系,據æ·å²æ‰€è¼‰ï¼šé™³æ°å¤§èˆœç‚ºå§‹ç¥–,周æ¦çŽ‹å°èƒ¡å…¬æ»¿äºŽé™³ï¼Œåœ¨ä»Šæ²³å—é–‹å°åºœï¼ŒåŽäººèˆ‡é‚‘為姓。 I tried to do research on Chén 陳 genealogy. According to written historical records, Emperor Shun was the first ancestor of the Chén 陳 family. King Wu of Zhou (Chinese: 周æ¦çŽ‹; pinyin: zhÅu wÅ wáng) or King Wu of Chou confer the territory of Chén 陳 to Hugong Man 胡公满. The territory of Chén 陳 is in present day Kaifeng, Henan province. Later generations used the name of the territory Chén 陳 as the family name.
在漢桓å¸æ™‚陳實,å—仲弓,為太丘長,åé‡å¤©ä¸‹ï¼Œæ˜¯é™³æ°è¿‘祖,在廣州市有太丘書院。 Chen Shi 陳實 lived during the reign of Emperor Huan Di æ¡“å¸ (146 – 168 C.E.) of the Han Dynasty. His zì å— was 仲弓 ZhònggÅng. He became a very famous leader of the town of 太丘 Tà iqiÅ«. He is a Chén ancestor of the recent past. There is an academy of classical learning in Guangzhou called 太丘書院 Tà iqiÅ« Academy.
至宋æœé™³è¼ã€‚號鳳臺,為諫è°å¤§å¤«ï¼Œç”Ÿè¬¨ï¼Œå®£ï¼Œè‹±ï¼Œæ„·ï¼Œé–,圖,ä»ï¼ŒåŽŸä½å—雄ä¿æ˜Œç¸£æ²™æ°´æ‘ä¹çœ¼äº•ï¼Œç ç£¯å··ï¼Œå› é¿äº‚,兄弟七人率å侄廿八人逃亡,大難臨é å„分飛,謨至新會,宣至æ±èŽžï¼Œè‹±è‡³æ²–金,愷至汶æ‘,é–至潮州,圖至å¤å²¡ï¼Œä»è‡³æ¸…é 。 Chen Hui é™³è¼ lived during the Song Dynasty. His hà o 號 was Fèngtái 鳳臺. He was the official in charge of arbitration. He fathered Mó 謨, XuÄn 宣, YÄ«ng 英, KÇŽi æ„·, Rùn é–, Tú 圖, and Rén ä». He originally lived in ZhÅ«jÄ« ç ç’£ Lane in JiÇ”yÇŽn ä¹çœ¼ Court of the Village of ShÄshuÇ æ²™æ°´ in the District of BÇŽocháng ä¿é•· in the Prefecture of Nánxióng å—雄. Because of political unrest, the seven brothers together with their families (altogether 28 people) fled from home. When the great catastrophe arrived, everyone fled in different directions. Mó 謨 went to XÄ«nhuì 新會. XuÄn 宣 went to DÅngwÇŽn æ±èŽž. YÄ«ng 英 went to ChÅngjÄ«n 冲金. KÇŽi æ„· went to WèncÅ«n 汶æ‘. Rùn é– went to CháozhÅu 潮州. Tú 圖 went to GÇ”gÄng å¤å²¡. Rén ä» went to QÄ«ngyuÇŽn 清é .
ä¾æ“šå®‹è³¢é™³ç™½æ²™å…ˆç”Ÿæ‰€æ’°ä¹‹æ³•ç¥–派目: 藉鳳毓嘉秀,和敬發賢良, 文明應顯é”,è¬ä¸–永傳æšã€‚ A very talented Song Dynasty gentleman by the name of Chén Bái ShÄ é™³ç™½æ²™ created the following generation poem: Jà fèng yù jiÄ xiù, hé jìng fÄ xián liáng, Wén mÃng yÄ«ng xiÇŽn dá, wà n shì yÇ’ng chuan yang.
代代相連,以記輩數,由于æ—èœå¤±å‚³ï¼Œç„¡å¾žç¨½è€ƒï¼Œæ¬²å¾žé 整編,殊ä¸æ˜“為。 Because many genealogy books are lost, it is extremely difficult to ascertain with certainty who our ancestors were. To start from scratch would not be an easy task.
ä¹ä¸‰å¹´å››æœˆï¼Œå¾åˆä¾„葆真,由鄉回美,經港å°ä½ï¼Œèˆ‡å¾è«–編修æ—èœäº‹ï¼Œæ“šäº‘:「ç¾æœ‰ä¹‹æ—èœï¼ŒåŽŸå±¬æ‡‰å„€å›æ‰€çè—而整ç†ä¹‹ï¼ŒåˆæŠ„錄為副本,授予為åƒè€ƒä¹‹è³‡ï¼Œå¹¶å¥‰ç‚ºå…¸ç¯„焉,亦僅粗具è¦æ¨¡è€Œå·±ï¼Œå°šæœªè‡»å®Œç’§ä¹Ÿã€‚隨åŽåˆå¾—毓åšå›ä»¥èˆŠæ—èœä¹™æœ¬åŠ©å¾ç‚ºç·¨ä¿®ä¹‹éœ€ï¼Œè§€å…¶å…§å®¹ï¼Œæ›´ç‚ºé å¤ï¼Œè‡ªèˆœä»¥å‰æº¯æºäºŽé»ƒå¸æœ‰ç†Šæ°ï¼Œç‚ºäººæ–‡ä¹‹åˆç¥–,固然有åƒè€ƒä¹‹åƒ¹å€¼ã€‚〠In April of 1993 my nephew BÇŽo ZhÄ“n葆真 on his way to America, stopped briefly in Hong Kong where I lived. We discussed how to reconstruct our genealogy. Someone said: "There was a gentleman by the name of YÄ«ng Yà 應儀 who took pride in preserving some very old genealogy books. He made a copy of it, which may be used as a model, although there were many details missing. Later on he obtain another old copy from Yù Fú æ¯“åš which shed some light on the other copy. This copy went further back from Shun Di to Huang Di, who was our first ancestor. This is most valuable to me."
æ„擬予以剪è£ï¼Œç¸®å°ç¯„åœï¼Œç·¨ç‚ºå®¶èœï¼Œå‚³è‡³åŽäººï¼Œä½¿å…¶æ¯‹å¿˜ç¥–宗之æºæµï¼Œèˆ‡æ—親之開æžï¼Œæ„義殊大,實éžå°‹å¸¸ä¹‹èˆ‰ã€‚ The goal of doing all this is to preserve our past generations for our future generations.
葆真å›æ·±çŸ¥äº‹ç¹ä»»é‡ï¼ŒæƒŸæ„å¿—å …å¼·ï¼ŒåŠªåŠ›å®Œæˆç·¨ä¿®ä»»å‹™ï¼ŒåŠŸç¸¾æ˜ç„¶ï¼Œç•™ååŽä¸–,至為欽佩。檢查家èœå…§å®¹ï¼Œæ±ºå®šè‡ªé»ƒå¸æœ‰ç†Šæ°é–‹å§‹ï¼Œé †åºæ•´ç†ç·¨ä¿®ï¼Œé å‹ä»¥åŽï¼Œè©³åˆ—ç„¡éºã€‚秀祥太祖生é”å‹ï¼Œé”榮,é”è¯ï¼Œåˆ†å±…于平安,銅鑼柱åŠå¤§å¢ªä¸‰æ‘,查é”å—本是和å—,但何故改和為é”,未èžé•·è€…æåŠï¼Œä¸å¾—而知。我é”å‹ç¥–當年兄弟三人,é¸æ“‡å¹³å¦ç”°æ´‹ç«‹æ‘,緬想å‰è¼©å‹¤å‹žï¼Œé‘¿äº•è€•ç”°ï¼Œå®‰å±…樂æ¥',且兄弟三æ‘æˆå“å—形,守望相助,雞犬之è²ç›¸èžï¼Œäº’為唇齒,急則å¯ç›¸ä¾ï¼Œæ„在斯乎。 My nephew spent many hours helping me to put together this genealogy work so that generations from Dacheng on will have a complete detailed reference zupu. Xiu Xiang fathered Dacheng, Darong, and Dahua living in Ping’an, Tongluozhu, and Dadun villages respectively. Original the character Da é” was the character He å’Œ. Nobody know why it was changed. The three brothers found this land very cultivatable. It was flat and well watered. They built houses on the land in the shape of a triangle so that they can see each other and they can hear the sound of each other’s chickens and dogs. In other words, they will be able to help each other in case they have problems.
復承å‰æ¸…探花陳伯陶先生繼宋賢陳白沙先生å†æ’°æ³•ç¥–派目; 大德å兼壽,家邦耀é 光, 廣å—星起å™ï¼Œè‚²ä¿Šå…†å…¶æ˜Œã€‚ A third-place candidate in the imperial examination Chen Botao continued Chen Baisha’s generation poem for another twenty generations. Da de ming jian shou, jia bang yao yuan guang, Guang nan xing qi xu, yu jun zhao qi chang.
åˆå¯æŽ¥çºŒäºŒå代矣,ç¶æˆ‘é”å‹ç¥–之åå«ï¼Œèž½æ–¯è¡æ…¶ã€ç¶¿å»¶è¬ä¸–,祈求晚輩有æ°å‡ºä¹‹äººæ,將æ¤å®¶èœéŠœæŽ¥è€Œä¸‹ï¼Œé‡è¨‚新編,åŽä¾†é€²ä¸Šï¼Œæ›´ç™¼æšå…‰å¤§ä¹Ÿã€‚ We hope that Dacheng’s descendants will flourish for a long time, when another poet will composed a generation poem for another twenty generations and continue their zupu.
å…月下旬,葆真å›å¯„來家èœåˆç¨¿ä¹™ä»½ï¼Œç¶“å¾æ ¡å°ç„¡è¨›ï¼Œé©é€¢æ‡‰æ£ å›æ¸æ¸¯æ¸¡å‡ï¼Œä¹ƒå°‡æ¤ç¨¿äº¤å…¶è¨‚æ£ï¼ŒéŽç›®ä¹‹ä½™ï¼Œä¸å‹æ¡æ¬£ï¼Œä¸”概然贊助å°åˆ·è²»ç”¨ï¼Œé¼ŽåŠ›çŽ‰æˆå–„舉,故特題å以資紀念。 My thanks to my nephew Baozhen, who at the end of June, sent back two copies of the zupu to me. I proofread it and found no errors. Thank you to Yingtang who came to Hong Kong and saw the zupu. He was very pleased with the manuscripts and donated money to have it printed.
å¾å¤–å«åª³é»ƒæ€è™¹å¥³å£«ï¼Œè² 責與å°å±±å°åˆ·å» 接洽承å°äº‹å®œï¼Œå¹¶ä»£ç‚ºå¯„發,費神之處,感激無涯矣,是為åºã€‚ Thank you to my granddaughter-in-law Huang Sihong who took care of the publishing of the zupu in Taishan and sent it back to me.
陳海峰敬撰 å…¬æ·ä¸€ä¹ä¹ä¸‰å¹´å…月二åå…æ—¥ Written by Chen Haifeng 26th of June 1993" Chén Bái ShÄ é™³ç™½æ²™ was not from this branch of Chen. He was from the same branch as Alex (June Chan)’s husband. I have this branch generation poem and I intend to post it in the following thread soon. siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=names&action=display&thread=752I also intend to post the lineage from the progenitor Chen Pan Xiang (陳判鄉) (Generation 1) down to Generation 16. Philip Tan
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Post by Henry on Jul 6, 2009 10:06:54 GMT -5
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Post by philiptancl on Jul 6, 2009 10:46:11 GMT -5
Hi Henry,
Thank you for your suggestion. I have just done the posting in the thread suggested.
Philip
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Post by jmchan888 on Jul 6, 2009 15:48:21 GMT -5
Hi Philip,
I have a brother-in-law from Malaysia. His name is Keong Lai who lives with his family in North Vancouver, BC, Canada.
I thank you for your detailed preface and translation of the Chan lineage. I printed a copy for my reference and for my prosterity to have.
As Henry said, it is very important for my research to get hold of the zupu or jiapu of my family. For now, I am just learning the elementary aspect of Chinese geneaology research. You and others have definitely gave me a good head start in learning how to do this correctly. Chinese is a beautiful language but it is very difficult because of so many dialects and the changing of Chinese characters to simplified format from the traditional form. I have been fortunate to be able to grasp on to a few characters still. You and Henry have done really well even when you were never exposed to the Chinese characters in schooling. I commend you both.
Looking forward to hear from you again.
Regards, John
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Post by jmchan888 on Jul 6, 2009 16:35:28 GMT -5
Hi Philip,
I accessed your thread in Henry's reply to you. It was amazing!!! The pictures which are absolutely fantastic and make the chart so much interesting to follow. Thank you so much for your hard work in organizing it and for sharing it with us.
Regards, John
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Post by Henry on Jul 6, 2009 20:52:11 GMT -5
Hi John,
If you will post the Chinese characters and Pinyin romanization, that Al Chinn sent you, on the Forum. I can try to locate your ancestral village on a map for you. Then you can see exactly where your ancestral village is.
Henry
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Post by philiptancl on Jul 7, 2009 0:09:56 GMT -5
Hi John,
When Henry started the section on "Clan Progenitor References" it was to assist readers in this Forum who share some common surnames in tracing their ancestries all to the way back to Huangdi (黃å¸, 2697 BC to 2598 BC). For the "Chen/Tan/Chan/Chin (陈/陳) Clan" thread within this section, it is to assist readers like you who have the same surname as mine.
Maybe you would have noticed that I am, relatively speaking, a baby in this Forum; just learning to walk and run as I joined this Forum only about a year ago. The credit on whatever you see that was posted by me should really go to my Sifu, Henry Tom. Henry has taught me so much; provide me with so much help and assistance that without him I would not be able to produce the little that you see. Given a bit of time, with your knowledge of Chinese and being four years younger than I am, I am quite confident that you will quickly overtake me in your understanding of Chen genealogy. When you do I hope you will join up in providing assistance to other readers in this Forum.
Do not worry about changing of Chinese characters to simplified format from the traditional form or vise-versa. You will soon get the hang of it especially when you have nciku.com to assist.
Where in Malaysia is your brother-in-law from?
Philip
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Post by Henry on Jul 7, 2009 6:13:07 GMT -5
Hi John,
As always, Philip is much too generous with his words of gratitude.
Although Philip has only been actively involved with Chinese genealogy research for less than a year, he is a truly amazing researcher with a skill set that is fairly awesome ! I just happen to help him get started and now look at some of his accomplishments. A few days ago, he had to correct my oversight in interpreting a lineage.
More than just an excellent researcher, Philip is a very kind person and a true gentleman - who is more than willing to share his knowledge and the information he has and to help others as much as he can. Philip probably has acquired more than 50 Chen zupus from all over China. It is also because he has access to so many zupus that he is able to confirm and verify Chen lineages both vertically and horizontally.
But, most of all - beyond the agony and ecstasy of Chinese genealogy research - I am so fortunate to have Philip Tan - as my dear friend !
Henry
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Post by jmchan888 on Jul 7, 2009 18:43:29 GMT -5
Philip,
As mentioned before, from your thread, I was able to access you information. I was really impressed with the chart including the pictures. First curious question: how does one know which picture belong to the person as there are so many?? Second question: Is it possible to print the chart including pictures??? Do you have to put it on jpeg. or pdf. file??? I would love to have a copy of the chart with the pictures. How can I go about achieving that? Please inform. Thanks.
John
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Post by philiptancl on Jul 8, 2009 10:00:48 GMT -5
John, If you examine each picture within the chart posted, you should see an arrow connecting the picture to a name. I do not know whether you can print the chart including the pictures. Maybe other readers could come forward to assist. When I constructed those charts I did them on Xcel spreadsheets and the pictures were then electronically pasted onto the spreadsheets. I then sent them to my collaborator Xuangxing for posting in the Forum. He is the expert on this. Please go to this thread below for his detailed explanation: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=comment&action=display&thread=878If you are interested to have soft copies of those charts with the pictures, let us have a deal. Go locate your ancestry linking your father upward till the progenitor of the Chan line of your ancestral village in Guangdong, I will provide you with all the soft copies of those charts. Maybe Henry can be the judge to see whether that is a fair deal! Philip
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Post by Henry on Jul 8, 2009 15:24:28 GMT -5
John,
Philip's proposed deal is more than fair. If you are able to secure your family Chen lineage up to the Chen progenitor of Guangdong province, presumeably - Chen Hui and his 7 sons - Philips's posted Chen lineages, with pictures, takes you back another 117 generations to Huangdi, the Yellow Emperor (2697 BC - 2597 BC). There are probably 30 plus generations from you to Chen Hui - so, we are talking about around 140 plus generations from you.
Philip has already done all the heavy lifting in terms of the Chen lineage research - all you have to do is get a hold of a copy of your family/clan Chen lineage and connect to Chen Hui or one of his sons.
If you are serious about starting this process - you should post the Chinese characters and Pinyi romanization for the names of your ancestral village and grandfather and great grandfather, Al Chinn provided to you, on the Forum - so, we can begin to locate your ancestral village.
By the way, you are getting a lot of valuable information - for free - if you engaged the Chinese genealogy experts at the Chinese Cultural Center of San Francisco - their rate is $150 USD per hour - minimun retainer is $500 USD.
Also, the members of this Forum collectively - are a fairly awesome group of Chinese genealogy researchers - and we do not have to play second fiddle to any Chinese genealogy researchers out there.
Henry
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Post by jmchan888 on Jul 8, 2009 21:31:14 GMT -5
Hi Philip & Henry,
Philip, That is a great deal that you are offering. I definitely take you up on your offer. Thanks for being so generous and kind. I certainly have been blessed to stumble into Al Chinn's web site and then onto the forum. Then, as a stranger, you all accepted me into your geneaological family. Furthermore, you provided me such an educational opportunity that no doubt it would be monetarily quite costly from an outside source. I am thankful and am in great gratitude for both of your help for free!! I do realize the valuable information that I am getting.
Gentlemen, I am very serious about this. I send by snail mail a letter to Al Chinn with village information. Hopefully, I will get a reply from him soon. I have no mean of copying the info on to the computer. Can I either forward Al's email to you, Henry and/or Philip? Therefore, I would need both of your email addresses.
Thanks, Philip, for directing me to Xuangxing's thread. By the way, who is Xuangxing, your collaborator???
I am so excited of the possibility of linking up my ancestors to Philip's line!!! Henry, you are absolutely right that Philip did the heavy work already. I really do have it easy as compared to what the heavy labor has accomplished. Thank you Philip for your hard work. You, too, Henry for your wisdom and counsel. Thank you so much.
Regards, John
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Post by jmchan888 on Jul 8, 2009 21:47:48 GMT -5
Philip,
I accessed Xuangxing's thread on how to post an image. Wow, you have to be really computer savvy to do what he did!! (maybe I was easily impressed because I am not too computer literate!!). I could appreciate how much effort and time were required to construct the chart and the pictures. Thanks to you both.
John
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Post by philiptancl on Jul 9, 2009 3:17:19 GMT -5
John, To know who Xuangxing is, can you go to this thread: siyigenealogy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=names&action=display&thread=752&page=1under "Reply #5 on Jun 27, 2008". That was his first posting in this Forum. Follow that thread and you should be able to learn about him. Since his first posting, we have become collaborators. I too am not computer savvy and Xuangxing has so kindly agreed to work with me. I have sent you an email regarding my email contact as well as some other information. In addition I also have sent the same contents to you through personal message board in this Forum. Philip
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