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Post by lumsing1909 on Jun 12, 2009 6:56:17 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300][/glow]  Hello there everyone. My family and I have been lost for years in this searching so I would be happy with any help. I managed to put together all the info the family had in stories last year and find some Australian documentation to prove it - but as for the Chinese info - I am L O S T. My Grandmother's Grandfather's name was Samuel Lum Sing. He died in QLD aged 54 yrs. His death certificate states he was born Hong Kong China and lived 30yrs in NSW & QLD, his father is stated as Samuel Lum Sing (Storekeeper) and mother Ah Nee. So I figure he migrated about 1879. His grave is in English. I can't find record of him arriving in Australia. In 1888 he wrote a very well written (in English) letter to my my GG Grandmother asking her to be his wife. Her name was Sarah Jorg See (we cannot find record of her father Thomas See entering Australia either - or Sarah's birth certificate on the NSW BDM despite even writing to them). On Thomas's death certificate: died 1905 aged 70, after living in NSW & QLD for 41 yrs, born Canton China - parents not known. His grave is on the "reading chinese graves" golden threads website. Back to Samuel: My great aunt tells me that she recalls seeing in a family book (maybe a bible) the name Leong Lum Sing. A family friend also insists that his father, Mr Yong Gee, was Samuel's cousin and they came to Australia together, and they came from a village called Chow Been near a big city called Zohongshan about 1.5hrs from Hong Kong (I've no idea of the spelling - I guessed). The story goes that there are about 200 houses there with some of our family - for 28 generations (I have no evidence whatsoever for all that info) The NAA revealed documents (CEDTs) of Samuels' 5 daughters returning to china in 1912 for an education after he and his wife died (1909 & 1910). they returned 1913. There are many family stories about this time including one where my G Grandmother was flower girl for a royal wedding. They lived with a rich family and were chaffeur driven to school etc. Later there are more CEDTs and documents relating to the eldest daughter and her husband (Charlie Lee AKA Lee See born Canton China) returning to china. Family stories say Eva however died on a ship on the way back and I cannot find documentation of her death. NAA documents state she died in China 1915. I have a letter she wrote a letter to her sister a few months prior and mentions seeing someone in "Shakke". By the NAA documents, it seeems her business owner husband returned to China 1924 and never returned. I have found so much but still so much to find. I would be grateful for any help. |
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Post by harc3 on Jun 12, 2009 8:26:35 GMT -5
Well done on your search so far. I am no expert on this by no means but I think "Zohongshan" was known as "Chung Shan" which I believe is now "Zhengcheng" (same area as my ancestors) from the village database found here www.c-c-c.org/villagedb/search.cgiI found this (encoding unicode utf-8) County ä¸å±± Chung Shan Heung 馬嶺鄉Mar Ling Heung Village 曹邊Cho Bin Surname(s) æ¢,曹LEUNG, CHO I believe this would be the village. Sorry can't be much help but I am sure someone on here can help |
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Post by tyuti1668 on Jun 12, 2009 10:20:03 GMT -5
Well done on your search so far. I am no expert on this by no means but I think "Zohongshan" was known as "Chung Shan" which I believe is now "Zhengcheng" (same area as my ancestors) from the village database found here www.c-c-c.org/villagedb/search.cgiI found this (encoding unicode utf-8) County ä¸Âå±± Chung Shan Heung 馬嶺鄉Mar Ling Heung Village 曹邊Cho Bin Surname(s) æ¢Â,曹LEUNG, CHO I believe this would be the village. Sorry can't be much help but I am sure someone on here can help ZC is in east bank while ZS is in west bank of the pearl river There's NO (ä¸å±±) Chung Shan/Zhongshan until Dr. Sun Yat-sen's death in 1925. The ex-name is 香山縣. The "曹邊" village in Google map. |
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Post by geoff on Jun 12, 2009 18:16:40 GMT -5
Harc3,
Could I please make a correction to your comment......."Zohongshan" was known as "Chung Shan" which I believe is now "Zhengcheng" (same area as my ancestors)".
Zengcheng county (in mandarin) or Jungseng county (in cantonese) is north east of Canton, on the Canton to Hong Kong railway line. Whereas Zhongshan is south of Canton.
lumsing1909,
You are so fortunate to find the CEDTs at NAA. Did you find 2 passport size photos attached to CEDTs? Have you found naturalisation docs at NAA? I found Vic naturalisation docs, NSW CODs & many CEDTs with photos at NAA. The bdm's (births, deaths & marriage) docs in Aust as well as headstones fill in the gaps. My ancestors are also on Golden Threads in country NSW. Sometimes it's difficult to access that site.
On return to Australia, the traveller's CEDT was relinquished & all copies have the word "cancelled", with a return date & name of ship written on them. If the CEDT doesn't have "cancelled" or return info then you maybe looking at the Customs dept's copy of the CEDT or the traveller's copy was archived elsewhere or as you suspect, he didn't return to Aust.
My gmother died on her way to China. There's no registration of her death in Australia as she died "outside Australian Waters" & not required to reg in any state of Aust.
Have you found any names on passenger shipping arrivals in Aust? At the moment I'm researching arrivals in Vic mid 1850 to 1900.
Regards,
Geoff
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Post by harc3 on Jun 12, 2009 23:12:12 GMT -5
Thanks Tyuti and Geoff for clearing things up...Like I said I am not expert on this.
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Post by douglaslam on Jun 13, 2009 7:19:20 GMT -5
Geoff,
It is so reassuring to hear from you again. Where have you been?
Further to lumsing1909's query. Shakke is perhaps, Shekki, or Siqi in Mandarin. It is Zhongshan or Chungshan's provincial centre. Shekki dialect is music to my ears, tyuti1668 would probably concur with me. It was a big deal going to Shekki for a day trip in the early '50s when I was a wee lad in China. It is so different now.
Douglas
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Post by tyuti1668 on Jun 13, 2009 8:21:11 GMT -5
Geoff, It is so reassuring to hear from you again. Where have you been? Further to lumsing1909's query. Shakke is perhaps, Shekki, or Siqi in Mandarin. It is Zhongshan or Chungshan's provincial centre. Shekki dialect is music to my ears, tyuti1668 would probably concur with me. It was a big deal going to Shekki for a day trip in the early '50s when I was a wee lad in China. It is so different now. Douglas The "proper" Cantonese had replace Shekki dialect in the young generation as first dialect to other Yue dialect speaker which is quite sad. My family understand above 90% Shekki dialect but shy to speak it unlike "old" days. Just for fun (From chinese Web2.0 site)-dialects of 中山 : 石岐隆都 大涌 沙溪三鄉 |
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Post by geoff on Jun 13, 2009 17:58:27 GMT -5
Hello lumsing1909,
You say "I can't find record of him arriving in Australia".
Here are some possible sources for this info.
1. Naturalisation papers at NAA. On the "Memorial for Letters of Naturalization" questions incl "date of arrival & by the ship....".
2. Passenger list. Have you found any passenger lists on microfilm or transcriptions on the internet? If you do find a passenger list then check all variations & combinations of his name. He may not have landed in Qld. He may have arrived in another Colony & travelled to where you found him living. You later say he spent time in NSW. Have you searched " Mariners & ships in Australian Waters" at mariners.records.nsw.gov.au? Listing of passengers & crew arriving in Sydney from 1845 onwards.
3. Application for Certificate of Domicile (COD). On the application the traveller has to declare "I have been residing in The Commonwealth at the places and during the periods following, viz;- ......................". This should give you a clue to when & where he was a resident & by deduction the the approx year of his arrival in Aust. The application was more informative as it also included the full current address, occupation, wife, children & grandchildren, & properties owned, all not noted on the COD. My gggfather (nat 1882) was issued with a COD in 1902 & in 1907 with a CEDT, prior to his trips to China. At present I don't know why different docs were issued, maybe future research.
My comments are based on my research in the Colonies of Vic & NSW & things may have been done differently in each colony. For example, each colony had different railway gauges widths (Qld, Tas & WA narrow gauge, NSW std gauge, with Vic & SA on broad gauge).
I'm searching for the birth place of one of my chinese grandmothers. If you come across a female born in Qld in late 1880's with the surname NG, could you please let me know.
It is great to hear from another Aussie born chinese trying to piece together his long family history in Aust.
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Post by geoff on Jun 13, 2009 18:13:47 GMT -5
Douglas,
As you can see, I'm still around. Haven't dropped off the planet yet. I've been having a look at Victorian passenger/ship arrivals 1850's to 1900. It seems that Victoria was the place to go to during that era........all that gold waiting to be discovered in those Victorian gold fields.
Great to read some of your experiences. Any more?
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Post by helen on Jun 20, 2009 5:30:37 GMT -5
Hi Guys - I'm back after 3 weeks of being in China. All I can say is not to leave it too late to go there. I am afraid I left my run too late. My late Mother in law's village have people aged about 55-60, younger than my husband. All they can tell me are child hood memories (Who remembers much of that - and how accurate is it) and second hand information. However the village was exactly as she had descibed it. They showed me all the empty houses belonging to the expat Kiwi's. They are at least keeping tabs on who owns what house. The problem being that it may be verbal knowledge. What will happen in the near future? the trip has also helped me decide on what I was actually doing my research for - I think I may now have enough to stop now.
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Post by Henry on Jun 20, 2009 7:03:00 GMT -5
Hi Helen,
Welcome back !
Yes, any overseas Chinese that want to visit their ancestral villages - should try to do it as soon as possible. Most of that older generation are now gone and it will not be long before the local knowledge of the village history and the people are also gone.
I hope you had a wonderful trip and visit to China.
Henry
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Post by helen on Jun 20, 2009 18:32:01 GMT -5
Hi Henry - good to be back - but its freezing here. Not only is the knowledge not there, the old houses have been left to decay and fall in.
The young people have moved to the cities, leaving the older people. And by old, I mean the 55s plus. I felt for them, as they still have to make a living but are too old to be outside in the workforce. Computers etc have passed them by. It's the people who were young drung the 1949 plus period - they make a living by cutting threads of jeans, or adding a stitch - men were doing that as well - for 1 fen per jean. That's 100 jeans for a Yuan...
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