|
Post by Henry on Jan 31, 2006 23:57:55 GMT -5
To: Tom / Hom / Tham / Tan Clan members: Welcome ! Please participate here in discussing Tom clan genealogy research and sharing your experiences / knowledge. Take a look at : Tom Genealogy mysite.verizon.net/vzepzaui/index.html Henry Tom
|
|
|
Post by southsloper on Feb 1, 2006 17:25:40 GMT -5
Hi Henry, thanks for posting the URL, it's got wonderful information. Good for general interest as well as those of us interested in Siyi genealogy specifically like myself.
|
|
|
Post by Henry on Feb 1, 2006 18:40:51 GMT -5
Hi Southsloper,
Thanks for the kind words - the on-going challenge is to piece together a coherent history of the origin of the Tom clan in Shandong province and the migration of the clan to Guangdong province. So many bits and pieces - heavily dependent upon English translations. Glad to share my information !
Henry
|
|
Origin of the Tom Surname
Guest
|
Post by Origin of the Tom Surname on Feb 3, 2006 20:36:14 GMT -5
Based on Sheau-yueh J. Chao's book entitled "In Search of Your Asian Roots - Genealogical Research of Chinese Surnames", the surname Tom is listed as T'an 2 in the book (same Chinese surname character). Note that there is another listing for T'an whose Chinese surname character is similar but is a different character. For your information, the following is extracted from the book verbatim for the Tom surname of interest here, with Chinese characters excluded: "The surname T'an came from two sources: 1. Yuan ho hsing tsuan traces the origin of the surname T'an as follows: the surname derived from the name of the feudal territory, the State of T'an (T'an kuo) in the Spring and Autumn (Ch'un ch'iu) Period. After the State of T'an was defeated by the State of Chu (Chu kuo), its descendants formally adopted T'an as their common surname. The family initially settled in Shan-tung and later prospered in Hu-nan provinces. 2. The surname T'an branched from the surname T'an (the similar character Chinese surname) due to a change of character for the name to avoid revenge of the family by the rivals."
|
|
|
Post by Raymond on Feb 3, 2006 20:39:05 GMT -5
PS: The previous message citing the "Asian Roots" book was posted by the guest, Raymond.
|
|
|
Post by Henry on Feb 4, 2006 0:06:10 GMT -5
Hi Ray,
Thanks for your due diligence. This is certainly a major and credible source. I asked Sheau-yueh to check on the second source for the Tan surname because there is another State of Tan named after what seems to be another variation of this surname. The capital city of this State of Tan is present day Tancheng in Linyi county, Shandong province. Linyi county is next to present day Ju county - where the people had fled to and changed their surnames to Tan in remembrance of their conquered State of Tan located east of the capital of Shandong, Jinan in Zhangqui city. The State of Tan was conquered by the the kingdom to its east - the State of Qi - present day Linzi county.
|
|
|
Post by Raymond on Feb 4, 2006 7:39:47 GMT -5
Henry,
From Sheau-yueh J. Chao's Asian Roots book, here is the verbatim research writeup on the second variation of the T'an surname written as Õ„ : "The surname T'an Õ„ derived from the following two sources: 1. According to Ch'ien chia hsing, the eldest son of the Shang ÉÌ king Ti-i µÛÒÒ whose name was Wei Tzu-ch'i ΢×Ó ? was bestowed with the feudal territory of the State of Sung (Sung kuo Ë·ø) by Chou Wu-wang ÖÜÎäÍõ. Thirty-six generations later, the State of Sung was ruled by T'an Ch¨¹n Õ„ ? after he defeated the State of Ch'u (Ch'u kuo ³þ‡ø) and T'an was adopted as a common surname by his descendants. 2. The surname T'an follows the ancestral line of Chi T'an ¼®Õ„ who was a grand master (ta-fu ´ó·ò) in the Chou ÖÜ dynasty. His descendants initially adopted the surname T'an Õ„ but later changed to T'an ×T after the family escaped from the homeland to avoid revenge by the rivals." I suppose in theory Tan's of both the Chinese character variations are in essence the same bloodline.
Raymond
|
|
|
Post by Henry on Feb 4, 2006 11:36:02 GMT -5
Hi Ray, In Sheau-yueh's reference work, she indicates two sources for the 談 surname and a modification resulting in the 譚 surname. Besides the variations in the Chinese characters between these two, there is a third variation - 郯 - which is a surname and name of an ancient capital of the State of Tan. The 郯 surname is not in Sheau-yueh's book - which is why I asked her to check on it. Apparently, there were multiple State of Tan - one conquered by the State of Qi in 684 BC and one derived from the conquering of and/or being by the State of Chu - whereby the people adopted Tan as the surname. Currently, I am trying to understand the historical events and associated chronology with attendant variations in the surnames - whew ! But, according to other historic sources, the family / clan that changed its surname to 譚 was originally from the family / clan surname of Ji 姬 around 2300 BC. Check frequently under "History" in my Tom Genealogy website: mysite.verizon.net/vzepzaui/index.html for updated information. Henry
|
|
|
Post by Raymond on Feb 4, 2006 17:09:28 GMT -5
Henry,
I can now see that much, much more in-depth research is needed in your endeavor to track down the roots of the Tom/Tan family clan name. Best of luck to you in your relentless pursuit of your genealogy.
By the way, I thought your xupu (jook po, in Cantonese) for your Tom/Tan family clan would have laid out nicely much of the information you are seeking. Alternatively, if there were other versions of the xupu in the hands of descendants of the other 2 variations of the Tan surname, perhaps their xupu's may have detailed out more in-depth the vital early Tan history information that you are seeking.
Cheers, Raymond
|
|
|
Post by Henry on Feb 4, 2006 17:48:36 GMT -5
Hi Ray,
Thanks !
I have been unable to have my seven Tom / Tan zupu(s) completely translated into English. I am trying formulate a consensus of the information that I do have - which seems to support the State of Tan hypothesis in Shandong, but, I suspect Tom / Tan origins probably go back even earlier and within Henan province.
Then, all I have to do is somehow reconcile the results of my historical research with the historical basis and foundation of the Chew Lun Association. The Chew Lun Association ( 昭 倫 公 所 ) is a four clan association that includes the four surnames- Hom ( 譚 ), Tom ( 談 ), Huey ( 許 ), Der ( 謝 ). This runs along the lines of what you are suggesting in terms of using other zupu(s) for confirmations and explanations in general - and then the specific zupu(s) of these other three clans in particular.
Currently, I am using the history of other clans that migrated to Guangdong province to provide a context and confirmation of the Tom/Tan migrational history, e.g., Nanxiong (Nam Hung) ( 南 雄 ), as these migrations also included the movement of the Tom / Tan clan.
Ciao,
Henry
|
|
|
Post by Raymond on Feb 5, 2006 16:18:13 GMT -5
Henry,
Given the you're wrestling with the monumental task of translating and collaborating 7 Tom/Tan zupu's into English, have you thought about the possibility that perhaps one or more of the zupu's may have already been translated into English? I suspect that if a translated version exists, the most likely place would be in Hong Kong. You may do a search on Tom/Tan family association(s) located in Hong Kong, and query them for an English-translated version of the zupu(s). Better yet, go there. Other suggested English-speaking clan association stronghold possibilities are Australia and England. I understand that most zupu's are written in the old Chinese classical style of writing, and that it would require somewhat of an expert in that style to effectively translate the zupu accurately. Anyway, these are just my humble two-bit suggestions to hasten your genealogical quest. Good luck........
Raymond
|
|
|
Post by Henry on Feb 5, 2006 18:27:58 GMT -5
Hi Ray,
Thank you for your suggestions.
I have already contacted the Tom Association in Taishan, San Francisco, and the Chew Lun Association chapters in New York City, Hong Kong, Taipei with English and Chinese letters and emails - but, no English translations are available. There is an English translation of a Tom zupu that I have been chasing for months - I received one page this past Friday and almost fell out of my shoes. It may be another week before I can have access to it.
I have a colleague /cousin in Australia who is an excellent Chinese genealogy researcher and I believe if there was an English translation of a Tom zupu - he would let me know.
I believe I have a fairly comprehensive listing of all Tom Clan associations and Chew Lun Association chapters throughout the world. Unfortunately, I do not know of any Toms or Tom clan associations in England - if there is - please contact me.
Yes, all the Tom zupu(s) I have are written in traditional Chinese characters. There is also another issue - cost - translating simplified Chinese characters is costly. If you can find translators that can do traditional Chinese characters, it is very expensive.
What I am hoping is that with my website - I will encounter other people researching the Tom clan and who are willing to share information and experiences. Thanks for the suggestions.
Henry
|
|
|
Post by twoupman on Feb 6, 2006 15:55:24 GMT -5
Henry,
Interesting Tom site and thank you for mentionioning my book You Are Royalty. As to the origin of your ancestry, would it be possible to see a few scans of the first volume of your genealogy records posted to your site? It should indicate where your surname originated from in China.
|
|
|
Post by Henry on Feb 7, 2006 16:28:27 GMT -5
Hi Twoupman,
Yes, I will do that as soon as I can figure out which pages might pertain to the origin of my ancestry. Thank you for the suggestion.
Henry
|
|
|
Post by Henry on Feb 7, 2006 16:57:20 GMT -5
As suggested, I have posted 2 pages on the "History" page of my website: Tom Genealogy mysite.verizon.net/vzepzaui/history.htmlIf you are kind enough to make a translation - please contact me from my website - thanks. Henry
|
|