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Post by harc3 on Mar 6, 2009 9:24:37 GMT -5
Hi all Through more research I have now found out my Dad's real name, his sister's name and my Grandfather's name (I believe) my dad's name is Sum Wah Ju his sister's name is Sum Ah Mao my Grandfather's name is Sum Chong Kee
So does this mean we came from a village of the Sum family name?? If so does anyone know which or how many villages I may have to look at??? When my dad went to China at just 3 yrs old on his papers it says his real name and then "sometimes known as" George Sum Wah Ju. When he went back to China at age 17 his papers said George Chong. Which is what I knew him as (George Wah Chong) My Grandfather later became "Chin Lee Chong" Which is where everything was getting confusing. I thought his name was Chong Kee then later I found out it was Chin Lee Chong and now believe they are of one person.
I had no idea at all that Sum was part of our name I hope someone can point me in the right direction of village or villages Thank You
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Post by Henry on Mar 6, 2009 10:49:43 GMT -5
Hi harc3 Based on the names of your father & grandfather, your Chinese surname is "Sum". One possibility is that the name "Sum Chong Kee" is from documents that were used to identify your grandfather as a legal resident/citizen of Canada - a "paper son". Hence, your dad was a son of a "paper son" and carried the same surname with the name Sum Wah Ju. The given name of George was a matter of convenience in a Western society. Later on, your grandfather may have decided to use his real Chinese name "Chin Lee Chong". Did you ever locate the grave of your grandfather and take a digital photo of the gravestone - this would have some valuable information. The Chin clan is everywhere. If you go to the Village DB: www.c-c-c.org/villagedb/search.cgiand do a search by Chinese surname "Shum" ( 岑 ) - you will see "Sum" clan villages in Taishan and Chungshan ( Zhongshan ). Henry
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Post by laohuaqiao on Mar 6, 2009 11:13:02 GMT -5
Sum (in Cantonese) could also be 沈, (Shen in mandarin) not on the village database list.
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Post by harc3 on Mar 6, 2009 11:21:58 GMT -5
Thanks lots Henry... So my grandfather's "real" name could be Chin Lee Chong??? and not Sum Chong Kee??? wow now I am really getting confused. Here is a link I have been posting things for the rest of my family to see. On some of the earlier documents his name is Chong Kee, Sum Chong Kee and the later documents he is Chin Lee Chong. I have also found a ship ticket from a hawaii database where there is a Chin Lee Chong. It was often the stop on their way here or san Francisco. There is a signature on the early travel docs in Chinese on the line "signature of Chinese person" I have no idea what they say if someone wants to translate for me. s79.photobucket.com/albums/j158/cheftaz/family%20history/I have been to my grandfathers grave but there is no stone. I am hoping to go with my older sister next week to the 2 stones we visited as kids during the Qing Ming festival every year. I do remembergoing as a kid but my sister is the only one left alive that knows which 2 stones. Whether they have anything to do with our family is unclear at this time. Hopefully it will give me some more answers. A very interesting journey thus far. Has been very confusing and at times aggravating but will continue and continue....
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Post by Henry on Mar 6, 2009 11:52:38 GMT -5
harc3
After looking at the 2 photos "dad's sister" and "dad at 3" on the link you provided - they have their Chinese names and it looks like laohuaqiao correctly identified your Chinese family surname as "Sum" ( 沈 ). This is proof positive. It is certainly not Chin.
Where is this signature on the travel document - for your dad or your grandfather?
If we have the Chinese names of your father and grandfather and because they returned to China to visit the ancestral village - their names are probably in the Sum/Shen family genealogy book in your ancestral village.
Now - do you have any information about the name of your ancestral village - once we have that - my Taishan nephew could visit the village and identify relatives and try to get a copy of your family genealogy book. Perhaps, those 2 gravestones that you will visit have the name of the village. Also, the name of the village would also be on the gravestone of your grand-uncle too. Can you take a digital photo and post it?
Henry
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Post by harc3 on Mar 6, 2009 12:14:17 GMT -5
Thanks again Henry The signature I am talking about is about 2 lines below their pic. (dads sister and dad at 3) its the only Chinese characters on either document Yes I am really hoping the 2 headstones (completely in Chinese)are of my family as I know the village would be listed on them. I don't believe my great uncle's gravestone (if he has one) would be in Chinese as it was my father that buried him only back in 1968. I will get more info on his plot hopefully when I go there next week and visit city hall
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Post by Henry on Mar 6, 2009 13:07:18 GMT -5
harc3,
The Chinese characters below the photos of your father and your aunt are their Chinese names and it does look like your Chinese surname is "Sum" ( 沈 ).
Please take some clear and close up digital photos of these 2 gravestones. Are these gravestones supposed to be of family members? If so, you may see the Sum Chinese character ( 沈 ).
Henry
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Post by harc3 on Mar 6, 2009 16:25:45 GMT -5
WOW Thank you Henry I hope to get good pics of the 2 stones next week!!! I went through my old pics of tombstones which I took a couple years ago. At that time I was trying to find Chong. But now I have gone through them again and have circled the character that looks like it could be "Sum" Rather than post all 13 headstones I have posted them here s79.photobucket.com/albums/j158/cheftaz/tombstones/Some of the characters look similar to "Sum" as posted above by Henry. Most of them are at the bottom of the middle row. If someone could take a look and translate to see if I am correct I greatly appreciate it
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Post by laohuaqiao on Mar 6, 2009 16:26:31 GMT -5
Just want to confirm that Sum Ah Mae (could it be an "e" instead of "o") and Sum Wah Ju are Cantonese phonetic translations of the Chinese names in the signature 沈亞微 and 沈華照, respectively.
Sum 沈 is not one of the larger Chinese family names. In Guangdong, by far the largest Sum clan (about 100,000) is in Chaozhou area, 潮洲, smaller groups in Nanxiong 南雄 and in Zhanjiang area 湛江 . Nearly all the Sums in Chaozhou area are descendents of a early Tang dynasty (~650 AD) military general Shen Shiji 沈世纪who battled rebels in Fujian and Guangdong and settled in Fujian province Zhao-an county詔安, near the border with Guangdong. The Sum clan became such a significant part of Zhao-An that people nicknamed the county 沈半縣 (Sum Half County). Over the years years, the Sums migrated over the border to Guangdong toward Chaozhou.
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Post by harc3 on Mar 6, 2009 17:23:45 GMT -5
Wow that is very interesting thank you laohuaqiao I know somewhere on here there are maps of the villages but have to pick up daughter from school. Will check later. Hopefully they will have the villagess in question on them
You guys are great Thank you
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Post by Henry on Mar 6, 2009 17:28:39 GMT -5
harc3, I took a look at the 13 headstones and did not see any Chinese characters that look like the "Sum" ( 沈 ) character. A character that you circled several times looks like part of a 2 character title of respect. Thank you laohuaqiao for posting the Chinese names of harc3's auntie and dad, 沈亞微 and 沈華照 respectively: laohuaqiao, Wow - thanks for the narrative on the geographic distribution of the Sum clan in Guangdong & Fujian provinces. I included a map so the folks could see the places where you mentioned. Nanxiong is just SW of Zhujixiang, which is south of MeiGuan (Pass) - where many of the surname clans migrated from circa 1273 AD to populate the San Yi and Si Yi regions. Henry
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Post by harc3 on Mar 6, 2009 18:49:41 GMT -5
Thanks so much you guys I feel I am finally getting somewhere positive
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Post by Woodson on Mar 6, 2009 22:05:04 GMT -5
Hi laohuaqiao, in my part of Taishan which is 都斛, we pronounce the two names 亞微 and 華照 the way they are translated. 微 is kind of close to 美. I think Mao would give it a 矛 sound.
The village database has 岑 instead of 沈.
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Post by Ah Gin on Mar 7, 2009 1:21:44 GMT -5
harc3,
Good pictures of the tombstones. Seems quite "standard". There are no real standard of course, but in this case, all the 12 seems to look similar in information organisation. Must have been installed by the same memorial stone company, and the Chinese people in that town has more or less standardised the format.
Left Column: Date of death. In this case, all pretty recent (to mean not in the 1850s etc.)
Middle Column: Name of the person
Right Column: Ancestral village,or when the person came from.
Regarding all the characters you circle: 1 through to 8, and 12, 13.
Each looks like the word 坟 which when written in Traditional Chinese is 墳 The word pair 坟墓 is thus also 墳墓 It means a grave or tomb.
Pictures 9 & 10, word circled looks like 滿 which is translated to "full". My eyes not too good. It may be something else.
Picture 11: 活 looks like the word "alive", "lively"
Hope this helps.
Regards, Ah Gin
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Post by laohuaqiao on Mar 7, 2009 11:09:14 GMT -5
harc3, The tombstones are of people from Taishan #1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 11, 12, 13; Xinhui #5 & 8; Zengcheng #9 (same as 10); Panyu #6.
Were these all relatives of yours? If so, I'm curious as to your relation to the person in photo #1, Lau Kung Shun. The reason I ask is we're of the same family clan. He and my grandfather were of the same "Kung" generation and approximate age. My father might've known or heard of him, I'll check.
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